Whitney (00:00)
It feels like people are really angry right now. And maybe that's not entirely a bad thing.

there are things happening in the world that should bother us. There are things that are unjust, worth protecting, and deserving of our attention. So this is not gonna be an episode about calming down and not being angry. I think anger can be incredibly healthy. The question is, what does your anger do to you? Does it activate you towards something meaningful? Or does it leave you more afraid, more obsessed, more certain, more contemptuous?

And ultimately more helpless because those are two very different kinds of anger. Jerry, when you think about yourself, people you work with, are you seeing more anger or more chronic activation in general?

Jeri Peterson (00:48)
Yes, I think that a lot of people are bringing in their as I call it their dynamic where their lives seem to be filled with activated emotion and anger is a prevalent one.

Whitney (01:00)
how can you tell that they're coming in activated?

Jeri Peterson (01:04)
Their body language reveals maybe they're feeling somatically a lot of emotion in their chest or their gut, or they'll just be talking so fast and so hard that it's very obvious that they're needing to diffuse some of this big emotion they're feeling.

Whitney (01:23)
Yeah, what comes to mind for me is the leaning forward, kinda not even just where one sits on the couch, like whether they're leaning back, versus sitting on the edge, kind of leaning forward or hands on their knees, ready to go. do people tend to come in and say, I'm just really angry, or how do they tend to talk about it?

Jeri Peterson (01:45)
sometimes they have trouble expressing what emotion they're feeling. So they might be feeling several. So I just try to to make light of it and say, let's let's talk about your three most prevalent emotions you've been feeling from the week. And if if if they have a pillow, an emotion feeling wheel pillow, then we work with that or I'll hold up.

the same thing and we'll work with that or I will guess. It sounds like you might be feeling X, Y, Z. And then they can correct and redirect.

Whitney (02:16)
Often find that people don't say I'm angry. They'll say like I'm really frustrated or I'm annoyed. this person's driving me nuts. and I'll call those emotions like anger light, like L-I-T-E. that annoyance, irritation, it's just a light mode of anger.

do you find that people are okay calling it anger?

Jeri Peterson (02:43)
It seems like a lot of us categorize anger as an unacceptable emotion or a shameful or bad emotion or toxic emotion. Well, I completely disagree. I think anger it just is an emotion. And so what's important is what messages are attached and what is causing, you know, the emotion and how is it behaving.

So I often go to the river analogy to to get get a step back so we can objectively or metacognitively look at how we're feeling and what messages might be attached, what it's acting like.

Whitney (03:22)
Yeah, as you said, anger, we shouldn't judge it. It just is. but a lot of times people come kind of scared of being an angry person or seeing themselves as an angry person. And I agree, I I actually like anger. and sometimes. Sometimes I want more of it. but we'll we'll talk more about that. because there is definitely unhealthy anger. I mean we

Can think of the basketball coaches throwing the chairs across the court. what comes to mind either in your own life or just in general when you think about someone who's maybe disproportionately activated. the game's not going well. you know, if I throw the chair across the court, I'm probably disproportionately activated.

But what else comes to mind?

Jeri Peterson (04:04)
I can see it in as a neutral in a neutral territory. I understand that sometimes we can be activated to anger that is feels very pressing or pushing that we need to act on it, like the coach throwing the chair, or somebody pushing someone, or you know, they becoming violent in some way, or they elevate their tone. And it again it comes back to can we

Take a step back and observe it and observe what messages are attached. Maybe someone is afraid of not being heard or that they won't be recognized in their pain or suffering and what is underneath it.

Or on the other hand, on the positive side, anger is a great motivator when something feels unjust, something feels like there's some action that needs to be taken, and if no one else is going to stand up, I will. And so it is empowering also. I think it depends on what we in our filtration system had become skilled at doing with big emotion.

Whitney (05:09)
Yeah, maybe we should start by defending anger a little bit. that anger itself isn't the problem. sometimes in therapy or in social media we'll talk about emotional regulation as if the goal is to just not be bothered by anything ever. we're just always in a state of calm and zen. that's not exactly

Prime mental health. because healthy anger is activating. It says, something matters, let's pay attention to this. we need to do something. It can give us energy, like you mentioned, to set a boundary or to confront harm, maybe to protect someone or leave a bad situation. can you think of a situation, maybe a client where

Anger was an important part of healing.

Jeri Peterson (05:55)
Yes. I think that's why rage rooms are a great idea. So for instance, in a phase of grief, we might feel so helpless and out of the ability to control what has happened, or if the fear that it might happen ever again. And that brings up anger. And for us to be able to to look at it and feel it completely and

let it come through our body. Either we can push against weights, we can go to a rage room and wreck something. But I think processing it pot possibly has to do with pausing, getting an objective standpoint and understanding what anger is saying and where it's coming from and what emotions might be underneath it, more vulnerable emotions. Often anger is a shield. But yes, for instance, in grief, to be able to express that anger.

without a a rational end to it, because there isn't one. We're helpless when we lose a loved one suddenly. You know, that is a helpless feeling and it it's angering. And to express it by some non-harmful way of getting it out of our body, letting it process through our body, I think is very healthy.

Whitney (07:10)
Yeah, and I'm also thinking that the anger doesn't always have to be

siloed off to a rage room that when we have healthy anger it it motivates us to action. And so we might think of someone who maybe has been in an abusive relationship and they've never had boundaries. and in that instance their mental health is actually improving when they finally get mad enough to do something and say, this is not how

any person should be treated. I'm not gonna stand for this anymore. and that person finally finding that voice and finding that anger is actually healthier for them. they don't have to just go to the rage room and you know pretend it's their abusive boyfriend's face. Like we actually anger can actually move us to do something healthy in regular life too.

Jeri Peterson (07:58)
I agree that what we're doing with it can move us toward violence or it can move us toward peace. So what is the goal?

do you agree with the idea that one of the highest forms of of intelligence, and there are many different kinds of intelligence, emotional intelligence, physical, intellectual, one of the highest forms of in intelligence is the ability to medicug or to step back and observe your own thinking and feeling and choosing.

if we're able to look at anger from a metacognition standpoint, our own anger, the way it behaves, and what messages might be attached, why do we feel pressured to act and then make a rational decision on that data and whatever else you know we come up with rather than just impulsivity or obeying that that urgency of an emotion?

Whitney (08:59)
in IFS we'd identify that as a part and then that part we'd personify it and get to know it rather than acting from the part. we can maybe act on behalf of it I think that's maybe what you're getting at with metacognition is that ability to observe our anger or the part of us that's angry and then

observe it, get to know it, why it's there, what messages it it has received.

I find a lot of times people are judgmental toward that angry part of themselves. Like we do not like it. Again, don't want us don't wanna see ourselves as an angry person. and often things that are are judged, we shove them down and then they're like shoving a beach ball underwater, it's gonna

pop back up full force. I think anger's one of those.

Jeri Peterson (09:51)
I agree. And it seems like with any big emotion, but especially anger, if we try to push it down, it often will come out in different ways. That's why we have terms like passive-aggressive. if a person will not look at their anger and understand if they're protecting themselves and what other vulnerable emotions might be there, or if something of their values has been crossed.

If they're not willing to do that work, which is therapeutic work, we do that all the time as we help people understand that you can do that, sit down and pull it apart and understand why. It's because you have a very strong value and it's being crossed. And that's important to you, isn't it? And then we can go from there to is there anything actionable?

And in that way we can befriend anger or decipher, am I simply shielding and protecting something more vulnerable with it? What it how's it functioning for me?

Whitney (10:49)
Yeah,

so anger gives us information. when we befriend our anger, we can learn why it's there and what what its function is and like you said, the value that is underneath it. and once we befriend our anger, we can decide what to do with it. It can become action or it can become rage, or even hate

so healthy anger might say, this is not okay, and I want to respond. Rage says, my nervous system is so activated, I'm losing my ability to respond proportionally. you know, you think of road rage. contempt says I'm better than you. And then hate says, you know, you're not, you're not just doing something bad, but you are bad.

less than human. and this is a massive psychological shift from from healthy anger to rage to then contempt and hate. and unfortunately, you know, we see this a lot in couples work. how do you notice contempt or hate in the couple dynamic?

Jeri Peterson (11:47)
I think it most often comes up when you can hear the language and and the presentation, the emotion behind it that part of a couple is expressing. And sometimes they're giving you clues that they're assuming the meaning of the other.

They are not curious any longer. And when when curiosity leaves, then things like contempt

Whitney (12:12)
assuming things like you did that because you're just so selfish or

Jeri Peterson (12:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, I thought you were this, and now I I understand you're this. That's a a signal of assuming meaning. it could be another explanation completely. Like my partner can go to a place where I feel invisible. Their behavior, their mood, everything, I feel like I'm shut out and they're just

They're not available any longer. They're emotionally unavailable. So using that term I can stand on that and feel righteous and feel that I'm being treated injustly. And on that, I can make a determination. I can call them emotionally unavailable rather than your behavior feels emotionally unavailable right now. Are you preoccupied with?

Instead of asking the questions, I'm assuming the meaning and saying you are emotionally unavailable, which leads to contempt, which leads to my exit strategy. So if you follow it through, it's a it's an ending statement. the loss of curiosity is not a good signal if if the value is in preserving the unity or or the relationship.

Whitney (13:26)
Yeah, that's interesting how it leads to the exit. because I can justify why I'm done or either whether that's actually done, like I'm leaving the relationship, or why I'm just done with you, I'm gonna check out emotionally myself.

Jeri Peterson (13:39)
Yeah, because really we've we've attached their identity for them to that behavior with an explanation we made up in our head. So we're we're giving them meaning rather than asking them who's the authority on what you mean when you say something? It's not me, it's you. And if I'm curious, I'll ask more questions to understand your meaning.

Whitney (14:04)
Yeah. Which is actually gonna open someone up rather than when they feel

like someone has already concluded something about them. They're probably just gonna withdraw i as a silent protest to that or they'll maybe have rage back.

Jeri Peterson (14:21)
It's a judgment.

Whitney (14:22)
I think it can be comfortable to be in hate in our prison of hatred. maybe it goes along with self pity

hatred or outrage can be like this warm, comfortable blanket. It's not a blanket, what's that thing in psych hospitals where your arms are connected to you?

Jeri Peterson (14:38)
Great jacket.

Whitney (14:39)
Yeah, it's not a blanket, it's a straight jacket and

Jeri Peterson (14:41)
straight jacket. I'd rather I choose a snuggle

blanket over a straight jacket.

Whitney (14:47)
Why do you think we do that as humans? Why do we go from you didn't help me with the kids to you are so selfish? Or, you know, you weren't listening there to you just don't care about me or you're just emotionally uninvolved. why do you think we go so quickly to those contemptuous judgments?

Jeri Peterson (15:09)
I think part of our human nature is to resolve ambiguity. So if we are uncertain what they mean or what their behavior means, what it equals, we're gonna try to resolve that. And if we're feeling impatient or it hasn't occurred to us to be curious, to ask more questions, to keep following that pathway, we're going for certainty. And the quick route to certainty, the shortcut is to determine for them what they meant.

Whitney (15:35)
Our brain is always trying to fill in the blanks when we don't know why something happened. Like whether we d realize it or not, our our brain's trying to figure out and put a story to what happened. I mean a lot of times this is unconscious or subconscious. and our brains have a pretty negative bias. So those blanks are usually never good.

why do you think our brain goes to that negative bias more often than the the more open or curious stance?

Jeri Peterson (16:02)
I don't know. I I like to think that we are wired for love, that we're pre-wired as human beings for love. And you can't go through life without having some wounding. And what do we do with that wounding? That often determines whether we stay in a positive mental outlook or if we start developing a negative one.

We want a solution and we want certainty.

But I think that being childlike in our curiosity is an important skill. And we may not consider that curiosity is a skill, but I do. And I think that's it's a very childlike quality. And sometimes our children can ask why to the the degree that we are rolling our eyes, right? But they are so curious and they want to know.

And for us to remain curious, it opens up a different way of thinking. instead of following the idea that we just need to resolve our ambiguity, take a shortcut, determine this person's identity for them, their meaning for them, we maybe we're just tired.

I don't know. Maybe we're worn out. But I think energizing yourself by being curious is a good strategy. I think it is a skill. The more curious we are, and it takes a little effort to ask good questions, to inspire someone to explain to us their identity, explain to us their motivating values. You know, what what is that behavior coming from?

Whitney (17:34)
I think a lot of us lose our capacity for curiosity that we all had as children. think we definitely lose that capacity over time. I wonder if it's because we're not always given good answers. you can think of the kid who asks why and because I said so or

because just the way it is. You know, as you go through life and get shut down over time I imagine that is a little bit demotivating to the curious mind.

versus the response where that parent perhaps really sits down and explains this is why we go to bed at eight o'clock because your bodies need rest and this is what happens when you don't have it and you know why does your body need rest? And then we go to the next the next level down. Well this is how our bodies work.

Jeri Peterson (18:21)
And you're showing curiosity right now. And that leads to the part of our brain that dreams and imagines and creates a different future. So you're able to consider a different idea. And I think that's key here. In order to do thought stopping when it's leading in a a negative direction, why are we stopping the thought?

maybe to make room for dreaming, maybe to make room for imagination and curiosity. And that opens up a different part of our brain that we can create something better.

Whitney (18:52)
Yeah, it sounds more hopeful.

Jeri Peterson (18:54)
Yes.

Whitney (18:56)
but before we talk about hope, we'll maybe we'll talk a little bit more about hate and how do we get into that hate loop?

hate is rarely where something begins, especially in relationships. You know, we we sit we said this a lot, most people don't wake up and decide, to be hateful or consumed by hatred. it probably some starts with something more human, like something that scares us or something that feels unjust, like you said, that violates a value, makes us feel powerless or hurt.

And then the brain does what it loves to do. It creates a story. And so we have the loop here is the threat and then making meaning out of that threat, which activates us.

then we attribute that to their identity. Like this is just the kind of person they are. and then we dehumanize them, flatten their identity, just make them this thing, which spills over into our relationships, and then that whole loop gets reinforced because once we start treating someone as less than, they respond.

And they can respond a lot of ways, like we mentioned, withdrawal or maybe rage back, and it just reinforces our our view of them they are less than or they are this selfish person or emotionally unavailable.

When does it become hardest to intervene in this cycle or in this loop?

Jeri Peterson (20:18)
In therapy,

For me personally, I try to deal with the activation first. So if someone is dysregulated in front of me, if someone presents dysregulated, I soften my startup with them and I ask them questions. I become curious. You must be feeling this. If they can't identify their feelings, I start probing and asking questions.

And pretty soon their body is starting to relax into, I'm being seen, I'm being heard, I'm safe. And so their vagus nerve can begin to relax. they're no longer in danger. So in this space, that's the hope, and it doesn't always happen. Sometimes people are so far into the loop, they can't bring themselves out of it. And so they'll leave a session.

Dysregulated, maybe less dysregulated, but in that 50 minutes they remain dysregulated and then they will report they're dysregulated for days or a week. And that's that's alarming because that means that loop is very ingrained.

when someone is not able to accept intervention and consider there might be other reasons why they're experiencing this threat rather than the meaning they made out of it. To me that's the Dorian is to try to get them to feel safe in your presence at least, or safer, so they can begin to have curiosity.

And then you can begin the the cognitive restructuring.

Whitney (21:59)
Yeah, and it could be helpful to put some context to this loop. earlier you gave the example of my partner is just emotionally unavailable. And so maybe that looks like I come home from work and the partner is on their phone, watching TV. I come in, you know, they don't even look up. so that is that's the threat.

the meaning that I assign to that is he doesn't care about me. He cares more about his job or social media than he does me. so then I get activated because I maybe feel that abandonment terror, where I might feel angry because I feel like I deserve care and respect.

and then, maybe I'm walking through the house, not saying anything, slamming the refrigerator, you know, kind of stomping around. passive aggressive communication there that something is not right. but then I, you know, as I don't repair this, I just start to make it part of their identity. well, that's just who they are. They just always are gonna prioritize.

work over me or work over family. can't believe I married someone like this. And then starts the dehumanization. and again and maybe you could put words to this of what you know what you think of when you think of dehumanizing, but I kind of think of thinking of it as flattening someone's identity into one aspect.

Jeri Peterson (23:17)
Dehumanization, I think it's broader also. I think you're right. it flattens a person to a very shallow interpretation that fits the narrative that we're building in our head. we might feel pain when our partner is inattentive. If they don't look up and embrace us when we're in the room or notice us still,

We might feel rejected, we might feel abandoned, we might feel less than important to them, or maybe they've fallen out of love, which is an interesting terminology we created. or you know, dehumanizing someone to flatten them or to make them less than what are they less than? Ourself.

We're magnanimous. We notice them. We love them. We're not flattened. So dehumanizing, I think, could can be explained as de-elevating their human features because ours are are higher, which I think is a mistake, to say, well, I have all of this love to give. See, I still love you. I'm still open to you. I'm fully human.

Well,

Whitney (24:23)
Mm-hmm.

Jeri Peterson (24:23)
you're flattened to, I guess I married someone and we attribute that meaning to their identity. That's a check-in point. when someone is exhibiting a behavior, to make meaning for them is mistake number one, to attribute it to their identity. I married an emotionally unavailable person.

that's their identity, then we're how many steps to the door? It is very divisive. It's very the conclusion has already been arrived at the four horsemen are present and the end is near, right? So I think we can understand and build those skills in and checkpoints of, I can catch myself at meaning making for someone. I can switch it to, I'm curious about that.

how you got to that conclusion.

Whitney (25:15)
Yeah. continuing on the loop, if we don't do that, that dehumanization, goes to relational spillover, where, like I mentioned, I'm stomping around the house, I'm slamming the fridge shut. and then

maybe silently communicating to them, that I have contempt for them. and then that partner there is not gonna wanna be around me. You know, maybe if they're in a calm state, they can be curious toward me. but but in general I'm

not a great person to be around anymore. You know, I've assumed this thing, made it their identity, started communicating it to them in some way. so they're probably gonna withdraw, they're probably gonna have anger back. that's just gonna reinforce, you know, he's not there for me. All he only cares about his phone, so emotionally unavailable or

only cares about himself. so my behavior then gets the reaction, you know, that it that it probably deserves.

restarts the loop. And we can think about this, you know, we don't just have to think about it for couples, we can think about it for friends, like when the friend doesn't text back, the meaning we then make out of that, then how we start to feel, how we start to maybe see that friend or ourselves.

We do it for different political groups or religious affiliations or, socioeconomic status. We can think about all the things we've assumed about someone who was living on a street corner. we do this everywhere, when we aren't pausing and and curious.

Jeri Peterson (26:36)
Yes, I think part of the danger in there too is labeling. So we when we group people together it and we label them and group them. So that is our our mind and our brain working together to try to reduce the uncomfortability of ambiguity. And also it's a bit lazy because instead of having the conversation and asking, who is this person?

Where did they come from? What's their frame of reference? why are they holding that sign? what are their values? we want to instead resolve the ambiguity, figure out what it is, nail it, and that's supposed to be a positive thing, nail it.

Whitney (27:20)
isn't this interesting we're saying the more ambiguity we embrace the healthier we are.

can you think of any specific situation where you witnessed that, that the less certain someone became actually, the less distressed they became?

Jeri Peterson (27:37)
Yes, I mean think of the diagnoses that we deal with on a daily basis. For instance, adjustment disorder that largely speaks to developmental stages of life where we're going through adjustment maybe it's a teenager adjusting to becoming a young adult. And the task is to figure out their identity pieces, figure out where they fit in community, how they're different from mom and dad.

How they're the same to mom and dad. What are their values and what is their personality? Is that innate or is it learned? So they have a lot of things on their plate. What do they want to do with their life? That's huge. And then they're trying to figure out what love is and how to select a partner.

Getting comfortable with ambiguity is accepting that there are unknowns that can be there and I'm still safe. Those unknowns are a curiosity.

I'm gonna put my imagination to work. I'm gonna start dreaming into my future. Maybe it's not what I thought it was going to be. Am I open to and feel safe enough within myself to trust the process? Do I trust that I'm going to be able to understand what's next eventually? Parts of this feel uncomfortable and I'm okay with that. That's what needs to happen in this space.

I don't have to have everything solved. I can't control everything.

Whitney (29:04)
Yeah, and I don't know or I can't control everything can be an uncomfortable place to live.

Jeri Peterson (29:11)
One way we

try to help people quantify that uncomfortability is to literally draw circles of what we can control and then a larger circle of what we cannot control and actually write in that space what I can control in this particular situation and then what I can't control. Once we can quantify it, it helps our brain, it's cooperating with our need to quantify things.

And and then be comfortable with ambiguity.

Whitney (29:41)
maybe that's why these are so addicting, because I'm sitting here in some uncertainty or not knowing something, then I have this immediate little box of certainty where I can look something up and find the answer.

doom scrolling is a common coping mechanism. sometimes we just doom scroll out of boredom or distraction. but other times we do it, I think, to find some kind of certainty, find some information where I can

have an answer. And then I think we have to consider whether, the information and the certainty that I'm getting is causing me to become more informed or more inflamed. because sometimes consuming more information doesn't actually, calm us down or increase our understanding. It just increases our physiological activation.

We could be reading about the recent ice event and the the more I read, maybe the more I notice my heart's pounding,

My body is activated.

and we get moved toward what we talked about earlier, which was contempt or rage.

something that you've read online, has that ever affected how you treated people in your actual house

Jeri Peterson (30:56)
Yes, for me, you might find a couple of design ideas that I dragged off the internet and they're now in my home. studies are starting to come forward that too much doom scrolling,

has a negative impact, it can cause depression, it can add to anxiety. And so you'll notice if you're looking at recipes, then more recipes start popping into your feed. Or if you see that there was a street fight in your local city, then it starts feeding you street fights everywhere. And it can give you the impression that that is the reality. That is what's going on.

And you can lead yourself to believe our city's terrible because your scrolling has brought you a bunch of unrest and violent behavior. And so you make the meaning for your city. my city isn't safe. I guess I can't go downtown anymore. or I have to go, at only certain times. And so it can mess us up if it isn't blending with reality.

So I I think we

can get a false sense of reality from what is entering our feed from our own scrolling.

Whitney (32:07)
Yeah, there's a difference between maybe caring about what goes on in the world and continuously consuming it. And I think continuously consuming it is often feeding something. sometimes that's feeding outrage. outrage.

can give us, a purpose for a living, just stimulation when we're bored. we mentioned certainty. It can also give us belonging or moral clarity, or a common enemy.

Mm.

Jeri Peterson (32:35)
Yes,

and neurologically it's a dopamine hit. So imagine if if we're introducing dopamine hits on that regularity. And if it's replacing sunlight or working in in a garden or having a conversation in-depth with a person face to face, if it's replacing those things and we're getting a larger, quicker

more concentrated dopamine hit, then it would make sense that it would fuel a cycle like a hate loop. And is that healthy overall? Is that what we're really foreseeing as a future? What is it doing? What's the outcome?

Whitney (33:13)
I think it can be appealing if we just sometimes want to feel something. Like we just think of it as stimulation. for some of us it can feel better to feel outrage than to feel nothing at all.

do you ever see clients who when life gets calm it seems to almost be uncomfortable?

Jeri Peterson (33:31)
Yes, we haven't said the word addictive or addiction, but I think that's what we're talking about those can become highly addictive behaviors based on, the dopamine hit or based on the content and we need to to rage and it becomes something that is overtaking us and then we need it. That sounds like addiction to me.

Whitney (33:52)
when we use the term addiction, it has a lot of negative connotation. But it also could just be a trauma response if our bodies are so used to hypervigilance that for things to feel calm, it's actually dysregulating. And so maybe I'm more comfortable with hypervigilance or I'm more comfortable with outrage and,

addicted to it or it just becomes our way of being.

we talked about curiosity as what brings someone back from a label to an individual person. What kinds of questions restore curiosity or how do we increase our capacity for curiosity?

Jeri Peterson (34:27)
I wonder what it would take to take on a mindset of humanity is a lot more complex than the flattening labels and cataloging and categorizing that happened in the hate loop. And what would be wrong with laying down those weapons of destruction? Because really that's what's dividing us.

as a culture and then also in our homes I really like your term flattening the complexity of a human. it's a mistake because we're so much more and we have so much more capacity I reject labels.

on myself because of the way I was raised. It's like if you want to know me, that's gonna take a lifetime. Let's go. because I don't want any of those labels, I might have some commonalities with them. I've had people argue with me, you you're not and no I am. It's like who's the authority on you know what I believe? It's me. And and who's the authority on your meaning? It's you.

So in that sense our identity is not flat either, and we can do that to ourselves. I'm more than a a girl that was raised in Alaska in the wilderness.

Whitney (35:44)
so it sounds like the shift is instead of asking how do I stop being so angry, we might ask, what does my anger tell me that I care about?

Jeri Peterson (35:53)
I feel angry if I encounter abuse. If I encounter someone who is actively harming another person, I feel angry. And there's a part of me that wants to intervene or speak up or I feel the need to do something in that space.

So if it's in therapy and I understand that someone is practicing harmful behavior towards someone else, I'm curious about whether they understand what they're doing is harmful. Because many times we're only seeing our intention. If my intentions are good, well the outcome must be good too, and that's not true. the intention is only half of the equation in a relationship, how it lands with the other is the other half.

And it's our responsibility to understand that piece too. So trying to bring to bear that your intentions may be honest and good and true and all of the things, you may not be intending to inflict harm or abuse someone, but do you understand that's the way it's landing?

Whitney (36:53)
So it sounds like your action consistent with that value is to then be curious if they see how their action is landing

Jeri Peterson (37:03)
We have blind spots. And so that's my.

That's my action that I choose to do when I feel angry. Usually that means there's the presence of harm. Someone's being harmed. And so you know, Joan of Arc rises up and I get to sit back and observe, well, why is Joan of Arc showing up right here and ask the questions? You know, is is someone being harmed intentionally?

or inadvertently and how can I get curious about the meaning I name this part Joan of Arc because she seeks justice and she hates injustice. So that's the part of me that gets reflected

in any situation and in therapy when someone's being harmed, I want to understand what's going on there and intervene if possible.

Whitney (37:53)
it sounds like we want to treat anger as something that needs direction rather than just this symptom to eliminate or get rid of. and I think that's where we get to hope. and not optimism, but hope. optimism says

everything is gonna be okay. but we don't know that. And sometimes it's the hardest place to sit with clients is that we don't actually know that this is gonna be okay or we don't really know what's gonna happen here. and sometimes things aren't okay.

But hope versus optimism. Hope says that even when things are difficult, I still have agency or I can still take some meaningful action.

so then the hope loop would be we feel a threat, maybe we get angry, but then we notice how that threat is

signaling something to us about what we value. maybe we value, like you said earlier, that abuse makes you angry. so maybe we value humans being treated with dignity and respect. and then we think what can we do? What's one small thing that

we can do to help bring about dignity and respect to this person. A lot of times that involves connecting with a person, understanding them. We see their humanity, the the goodness that is in them, which then gives us hope and leads to more action.

so while the hate loop feeds on consumption and certainty, the hope loop feeds on curiosity, connection, and participation.

hope doesn't necessarily require certainty about the outcome.

Jeri Peterson (39:29)
hope opens up possibility. Gottman's point out in their research that most conflict is unresolvable in couples. I didn't realize that until I looked at their work a greater percentage of these things that cause conflict.

become perpetual, if success in conflict means we resolve it, then nobody is successful. But the truth is the success comes through the ability to continue to respectfully dialogue about it. So if we're able to understand and dig deeper over time

And understand more the different perspectives, then perpetual problems can be successful. so that might be a microcosm and then a macrocosm in our society, will we resolve everything that causes polarization politically? No. it's too diametrically opposed. But if we continue dialoguing about it, if we continue understanding.

and call hard stops where there is actual abuse. We need our values and boundaries to kick in. once it's identifiable as abuse of a system, abuse of power, abuse of humanity, call a hard boundary there and know that that is not a place where we can compromise, that is an abuse and it needs to stop.

That's a hard stop. But then the rest of it, you know, continue dialoguing, continue seeing if we can find ways to maneuver where everybody's needs can be acknowledged and met to a degree.

Whitney (41:00)
I think the link here from healthy anger to hope is this sense of agency that in healthy anger again it motivates us to to take action and there's studies that show the part in your prefrontal left cortex that's associated with anger motivates you toward action.

versus things like fear and anxiety motivate us to avoid. again, healthy anger motivates to action, which is what we're calling hope here, this idea that we can take some meaningful action to change things or just

just in general, maybe it doesn't change anything.

Jeri Peterson (41:39)
I think it's redefining hope first and and understanding that hope doesn't arrive after success. We actually can generate hope. and to me that is huge because how many times do we sit down across from a client and say, Talk to me about hope? on a scale of one to ten, if ten is hopeful.

And zero is hopeless. where could you weigh in today or this over the past week? And they'll weigh in and we leave it there. my curiosity goes to where did hope come from in the first place? And I believe that hope is a renewable resource. I believe that there are things that we can tangibly look at and decide.

to act upon and to cultivate in order to increase hope.

Whitney (42:27)
we had the hate loop earlier, that was based on consumption and certainty, dehumanization. It sounds like the hope loop feeds more on participation that I can actually do something that I actually have agency here,

to change something or to connect with someone or to to make something beautiful, to help someone.

Jeri Peterson (42:49)
Hopelessness is a dead end.

Hopefulness means I have options. There are things I can do still.

Whitney (42:56)
hopelessness is maybe more collapse, but outrage is unproductive anger. neither really gets us anywhere.

Jeri Peterson (43:07)
I think they're intertwined. when we gauge suicidality, homicidality features, at the end of hope, those features show up more consistently I think that the hate loop in our discussion, it leads in that direction. It leads into a state of hopelessness.

And it feeds off of hopelessness and vice versa, where maybe the antithesis to hate can be looked at as hope that there is something that we can do. I can consider that you are a full human and we disagree on this subject and we can dialogue about that and we can show respect and we can come up with a plan, from it.

Whitney (43:47)
Yeah, so hope says that again, meaningful action is still available to me, even when things look discouraging or dire. that's probably why people are drawn to to prayer and something outside of themselves is because they're taking a meaningful action.

What restores your hope when you genuinely feel discouraged about something?

Jeri Peterson (44:09)
I think back to the positive mental outlook. If you've been training your brain over time or maintaining your positive mental outlook then the more you go in that direction, hope is a natural benefactor in that arena. So when you perceive a threat, you're filled with hope. When you perceive a threat,

your positive mental outlook is checking in with your values immediately. And then it's it's deriving meaning within yourself, but it's also curious about the meaning from the source of the threat.

That's a big difference.

we don't traditionally think of hope as a renewable resource. I think that

For me, it has been a new way of thinking about it because of the compassion that comes up in me as a therapist when someone's hope is decreasing or declining. what can I offer them as a skill or a tool? How can we make this tangible? it's a new way of thinking to consider that I could actually get enthusiastic when someone tells me they've lost.

some hope in this area. I can become energized. Good. That means it's time to get creative. That means that it's time to show some resilience. That means it's time to dig into your strengths and start to understand what you've done with success in the past that has given you a sense of self-advocacy and resilience. Tell me about the times that you've done hard things and you've come out deeper

wiser, stronger, and more beautiful. And then it starts building. You can see it. It starts building within them. and with that reflection, and the way our brain works, it's like we're wired and we remember and we bring it forward. And it fuels us and energizes us to to the action that needs to happen right now.

Whitney (45:58)
the hope loop feeds on participation and it sounds like creativity. there's always some meaningful action we can take and maybe it's feels really small. maybe it's just saying hi to the to the neighbor.

Jeri Peterson (46:12)
That's a valid point, which is why a lot of people go into elder care facilities or just do that, walk across and talk to their neighbor. People have a a complete life that's unknown. They have done amazing things, and it's just quietly sitting in them if they never get asked what was their career, what was, you know.

People are amazing and anything but flat.

Whitney (46:38)
participation might look like just calling someone, volunteering, being present for your kids, mentoring someone, making something beautiful, helping a neighbor, having an uncomfortable conversation, apologizing, setting a boundary, showing up for someone, doing your work well, putting your phone down. And so really small actions

actually characterize hope in our participation in those actions. what do you want your kids, your clients, your partner, your community, what do you want them to experience from you when the world feels chaotic or unknown?

Jeri Peterson (47:11)
If you want to interrupt the loop, kick into your ability to dream and create. Kick into, here is an issue that seems insurmountable. Awesome. Let's think of three solutions. You know, how could you turn it into, I'm gonna call someone, or I'm gonna show up for someone, or if it really upsets me that,

I passed someone who was panhandling on the street. Maybe what I'm actually saying is it deeply gives me a sense of grief that part of our humanity is in that condition. so maybe if I ask them how they got there, maybe if I brought them lunch when I'm getting lunch, maybe if I ask their name.

you know, what could we do differently?

Whitney (47:58)
so it sounds like hope isn't necessarily doom scrolling or waiting around for enough evidence that everything will turn out okay. hope is participating in what is good while we still don't know how things are going to turn out. perhaps that's why hope can be renewable, because it's not something the world has to give us or

Something outside of us has to give us, but it is something that we practice.