Whitney (00:00)
The Human Work Podcast. This is a space where we explore the real work of being human, the messy, meaningful process of growth, healing, and learning how to show up more fully in our lives and relationships. We believe that through connection and honest reflection, we move closer to what is good, what is true, and what is beautiful. Thanks for joining.

Whitney (00:20)
Imagine a couple named Maya and Will. They have been together for 11 years. They have two children, a mortgage, a shared calendar, and a thousand tiny systems that keep their life moving. Will knows exactly how Maya takes her coffee. Maya can tell by the way Will closes the front door whether he had a terrible day. From the outside, they look connected.

But lately they feel more like coworkers than partners. One night, Maya is telling Will about a difficult conversation she had at work. Will is looking at his phone while she talks. He gives a distracted, that's frustrating, and keeps scrolling. Maya stops talking. Will notices the silence and asks, What? Maya says, nothing. You never really care about what I'm saying anyway.

Will immediately feels accused. He says, That's not true. I've been working all day. I'm allowed to be tired. Maya rolls her eyes. Will gets up and leaves the room. Nothing dramatic happened, no explosive betrayal, no huge revelation. Just another small moment in which neither person felt understood. Later that night, Maya lies awake thinking, maybe I'm not in love with him anymore.

And

Will in the other room thinks, nothing I do is ever enough for her. Today we want to talk about what it means when someone says, I think I've fallen out of love.

Sometimes that feeling might be pointing to something true. Sometimes a relationship does need to end. But often falling out of love is also the name we give to a relational process we don't yet understand.

Jeri Peterson (01:53)
Sometimes the question is not only do I still love this person, sometimes the question is what have I been practicing in this relationship?

Have I been practicing curiosity? Have I been turning toward my partner's inner world? Or have I been practicing certainty about who they are, why they do what they do, and what every disappointment means?

Whitney (02:14)
All right, today we're talking about this idea about falling out of love. my husband was walking out to work and I I told him what this podcast was about and let him know he can anxiously await the conclusion

Jeri Peterson (02:25)
Okay.

Whitney (02:26)
of this question. Am I falling out of love? but

Jerry,

when clients say I don't know if I'm in love with them anymore, what do you think they're actually trying to describe?

Jeri Peterson (02:36)
It can mean a lot of things. I would dig in and find out what the meaning is underneath that. I think a good question is are you reflecting on your early relationship, the way they made you feel, as people usually put it. they make me feel a certain way. So in their story of how they met, how they got together, there would be interesting things in there, and you might see a little window in.

Whitney (02:59)
so a lot of times people may be describing how they felt at the beginning of the relationship or early infatuation. most of us can probably think back to the the early parts of our relationships and remember meeting for the first time and the the mystery and the unknowns behind it, the the high emotions involved.

And sometimes it can be hard when those feelings feel really distant or like they're not ever gonna come back.

Do you feel like those feelings disappear suddenly? like I just fall out of love, or do you feel like there's more small moments of disconnection over time?

Jeri Peterson (03:35)
when there's distance in between, it could be that they are avoiding conflict. Maybe their experience of conflict hasn't been successful in their eyes. And maybe there's a fear of, causing more of a divide, or maybe they've arrived at some place of certainty about their partner and that will cause something to detach.

Whitney (03:54)
conflict often leads to disconnection when we don't handle it in a healthy way.

most of us really don't know how to handle conflict in a healthy way. And the Gottman research divides conflict styles into three different kinds.

And then there's no right and wrong here, but you might just think about what conflict style you fall into. there's the avoiders, the validators, and the fighters. How do how do they describe that last one?

Jeri Peterson (04:21)
Volatile.

Whitney (04:22)
Okay, there we go. Yeah, volatile. the ones who are ready, ready for the fight. do you think there's a certain conflict style?

That

might lead to more disconnection or lead to this feeling that I've fallen out of love.

Jeri Peterson (04:35)
I do.

So each couple has a nervous system, and and if we become dysregulated and our emotion goes above neutral into a territory where we feel dysregulated or activated, or a lot of people say triggered, then we're not in prefrontal cortex any longer. Our amygdala has tripped, our vagus is activated, and we are in a much more ancient part of our brain where we are in fight, flight, freeze, fawn mode. So

If we are operating in conflict where we become dysregulated to that degree, then of course we might revert to what is our pattern, you know, from our historic feeling dysregulated. Is it fight, flight, freeze, fawn? So if it's fight, then we might be a volatile fighter. And if it's freeze or fawn, we might be an avoider. we might just shut down and

avoid conflict, It takes a lot of emotional intelligence, I think, to in order to have hard conversations that are deeply honest, where they you're willing to lean in to understand while you're holding your prone perspective.

Whitney (05:36)
you can think of Maya and Will. the issue seems pretty non-serious, but you're sitting across from the person that's actually the most vulnerable relationship that you have, as far as if I lose this person,

a I might actually have no one. Or if this person who truly knows and sees all of me rejects me, that is the most painful rejection you can possibly have. and so I think we underestimate just how vulnerable this relationship is, and therefore how hard it is to sit in that.

vulnerability and discomfort and this possibility of rejection or abandonment. And we're just talking about being on the phone, you know, being on the phone too much, but it's a lot more than that.

Jeri Peterson (06:21)
Right. It can be interpreted by the partner. they can attribute meaning in that space. he doesn't care, or he doesn't see me anymore, he doesn't value my presence anymore. Where did he go? Did he lose interest? If there's no conversation, no dialogue, it's hard to know what actually is going on. It could just simply be I'm tired.

And then you can understand how he would get the message, nothing I do is enough.

Whitney (06:45)
maybe we can slow down again with those

conflict styles. So again thinking about when there's a conflict with my partner, do I tend to avoid it? Do I tend to fight or get volatile? and again that's that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just a conflict style. Or do I validate?

the

Jeri Peterson (07:03)
Yes. I

Whitney (07:04)
And then you talked about how our nervous system response, fight, flight, freeze, or fawn fall into those different types of conflict. and I think the one people are probably less familiar with is fawn.

So fawn is when I abandon myself and I only want to meet their needs or keep them happy. and that can also be a trauma response in conflict.

Jeri Peterson (07:32)
I think it can be a point where it can bring up compassion because, most couples have the intention of having a a great relationship. We just don't come with manuals and we don't come with skill sets unless we've, picked them up or done a lot of reading and study. So fortunately we do have some

skills to drop for various things. And then we have to apply those individually to the couple because everyone is different.

Whitney (07:57)
So

what happens when partners start operating like coworkers, roommates, maybe co-parents rather than romantic partners?

Jeri Peterson (08:05)
Do you believe that there comes a a point in a relationship maybe past the 10-year marker where they do become really reliant upon their friendship, their companionship, and it's not the same as the initial stages of the relationship?

Whitney (08:22)
Do think that scares people when it feels like it's not the same as the initial stages?

Jeri Peterson (08:28)
I

do. I think it can be very scary if you're afraid that you're losing something by losing that initial excitement, maybe infatuation, the heightened emotion, just the the really hot temperature. And it can be replaced through child raising, through early career, through difficulty, family problems or health problems.

that could disappear and then the reliance becomes on the friendship. And so that can kind of go quiet, but it's it's also an opportunity for something stronger and deeper to emerge.

Whitney (09:00)
And maybe we can distinguish between friendship and roommates, coworkers. Because roommates and co-workers are just managing things. you don't necessarily need an emotional connection to figure out whose turn it is to cook dinner that night or who's gonna take this project on at work. or whose turn it is to drive the kids to school.

That sounds a little bit different than what you're talking about, which is a friendship where there's shared interests, shared play, creativity. There's a

Jeri Peterson (09:32)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney (09:32)
lightheartedness in friendship, generally.

Jeri Peterson (09:35)
You're right. and that would be concerning if if people are starting to close doors or compartmentalize the relationship, withdraw.

Whitney (09:44)
maybe that's a little bit of what Maya and Will are feeling. a little bit disconnected. they might just be managing the Netflix show they're watching that night and coming to an agreement on what it is.

what questions would you ask before you just accept I've fallen out of love as a complete explanation?

Jeri Peterson (10:01)
it's like showing up saying, We just need to communicate better. I think they're maybe reaching for why do I not feel what I used to feel? or am I making decisions out of certainty? Am I doing some meaning attribution for my partner rather than

remaining curious. People who've been married for 63 years can say, I'm still learning something about my partner. So I don't think there comes a point where we can stop learning about the other. And curiosity always has a place.

Whitney (10:31)
Do you think a partner is someone you can fully know, or do you feel like you can learn about your partner the rest of their life?

Jeri Peterson (10:39)
I do. I I do believe that. We change, we grow

Whitney (10:43)
So we talked about maybe the early parts of the relationship being exciting, fun, novel. There's a sense of thrill, adventure, unknown. but long term love can't rely only on novelty. can't imagine trying to make every day a brand new experience together.

It's just impossible. so familiarity can create intimacy, but then it can also turn into assumption. we stop asking because we believe we already know. we already have this person figured out. We know why they do the things they do. in our scenario, Maya's no longer wondering why Will seems distracted. she just decides he doesn't care.

Will's no longer wondering what Maya needs. He decides she's just impossible to please. And both have moved from observing a behavior to defining a person. so what is meaning attribution and why is it so powerful in relationships?

Jeri Peterson (11:39)
it's human nature to strive for certainty. we are very uncomfortable with ambiguity unless we practice otherwise, we want to know what's going on and everything needs a place and to be in its place. That's how the brain works. So it's we're reaching for we already know. And if you're frustrated and also have been

Stumbling up against the same issues with no real resolution, it would be really easy to come to meaning attribution. I already know what you meant by that.

Whitney (12:06)
so they're taking this observable event and then they're just assigning a meaning to it. Maya sees Will on the phone, decides he doesn't care anymore.

Will hears my criticism and just feels like, I can never do enough to keep her happy.

Jeri Peterson (12:21)
It sounds like they're avoiding maybe a hard conversation or maybe it's a challenge in their relationship to are you going to move to another level of honesty with each other?

I was curious about if he was feeling dysregulated or if he would count that as dysregulation when he's doing meaning attribution. I can't do enough. I think he's tired. You know, he says he's tired. So

She's angry. He's tired, he might be hungry. She's lonely. Together they've got halt almost completely. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired going on and they're not seeing it.

Whitney (12:59)
for those of you who aren't familiar with HALT, I believe it's actually from addiction work where if we notice we are having a craving for something, we need to halt and first pay attention to whether we're hungry, angry, lonely, tired. And if any of those are true, then those are the needs that actually need to be addressed before we reach for the substance. but it's not just for those who struggle with addiction, it's

It's everyday relationships. I mean definitely definitely with my kids. the hungry and the tired one are the most primary. But but we should pay attention to that for ourselves and others. so you're saying Will he's tired,

might be hungry. It's the end of the day. Maya is lonely, and maybe angry about that.

And I don't wanna make Maya the bad guy here because we talked about maybe she's avoiding a vulnerable conversation, that there is vulnerability underneath this really small interaction. You know, what if he doesn't care about me anymore? Or what if he really doesn't wanna spend time with me?

Jeri Peterson (14:04)
Yes, our person. That's where we go for safety, emotional safety. And so her emotional safety is being challenged right here because she's afraid he might mean I'm not paying attention to you because I'm not interested anymore or something else that's near that. So that's a very scary thing.

For a married partner to feel is my partner has lost interest in me or they're not attuned to me anymore. What do I do? What do I do about that? I can create a scene, I can avoid, I can withdraw, I can draw a conclusion for them. You know, I'm just too tired. So the the thing about HALT is it builds in a pause. And people who are not practicing emotional intelligence in the moment.

That is a great tool in order to point them to the what they actually need. So halt means pause and check in with yourself. What do you actually need? Maybe she needs a hug. Maybe she needs eye contact. Maybe she needs reassurance that he sees her. And you know, maybe she is concerned if he's hungry or tired.

And you know, so it would work well both ways. So rather than vilifying either one, it would be just slowing down the conflict enough to understand what do I need and what's a good way to ask for that.

Whitney (15:23)
When you say it it sounds so easy, but in the moment can feel really hard when couples are in this moment of disconnect and it could feel a little risky to be vulnerable. what if they're sarcastic in response? maybe they sigh like I gotta come give you a hug too. I've taken care of

Everyone at work all day and then the children and now I have to take care of you too. it can feel really risky, to be this vulnerable.

But you mentioned the safe place and it just reminds me of secure attachment and

a secure attachment should feel like I go out of this house and the rest of the world, it can be storming like it is today, it can be chaotic, I can have someone at work, do something that really hurts me. I

Ran my car into a curb. Not saying I did that lately, but anyway, all of this chaos can happen. but I come home and a a secure attachment feels like this is my safe place. I can finally rest. I don't have to deal with this kind of chaos and unknowns that I do have to deal with everywhere else in life. but here I find safety

But for a lot of couples, that's not the case. There's disconnect. There are these unknowns, these questions that we're silently asking about the other person. And unfortunately, silently answering them for that other person as well.

Jeri Peterson (16:49)
Yes, because we might not really want to know the truth at times. Might be scary. That's why emotional intelligence work is really helpful because we build resilience by realizing we can have hard conversations. We're really built to do hard things.

we build hope by looking at how resilient we've been in the past and recalling times that we have done something difficult and it and it came out okay.

Hope building is resilience and self-advocacy. So self-advocacy being your your self-belief that you are wired to do hard things, you can do hard things, increasingly difficult things. And that's how we deepen out through difficulty. So when people understand that difficulty can have a better purpose and what it looks like on the ground is

We're gonna lean in, we're getting we're gonna rely on our skills. And if we don't have the skills we need, we're gonna find them and we're gonna get help learning to use them. And we can do it. We can do hard things. So I already know reaching for certainty where that might be a mistake. Because even if you've been together for your whole life, there's more to learn about that person in that moment. We're always changing and growing.

And leaning into I want to understand, that's a result of being curious, maintaining curiosity.

Whitney (18:11)
in this scenario, Maya goes to harshness and criticism because she's feeling disconnected. and the hard thing here would have been expressing that disconnection and hoping they could have compassion in response.

if we, believe that we are wired for connection, then we also have to believe this other person isn't entirely happy being disconnected either. they probably don't love just zoning out on their phone all night.

That's not really fulfilling for them either. And so a lot of times it just takes one person willing to lean in, take a step forward. and oftentimes that person can respond, compassionately, because they feel the disconnect too, whether they admit it or not,

Jeri Peterson (18:51)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney (18:52)
or whether they're conscious of it or not. and they probably want more of you, but

we hold back because we're not sure what's gonna happen if I say, Hey, I really miss spending time with you or, playing board games like we used to. Could we do that tonight instead? even that simple question can feel pretty vulnerable. especially when this disconnect has

built and built that now there is contempt and there are these patterns of maybe criticism from one partner defensiveness and withdrawal from the other

How do you describe contempt how is contempt different from just ordinary anger or frustration?

Jeri Peterson (19:31)
I think it has a lot to do with meaning attribution, deciding for the other person that it it not only means that they are being dismissive of me, it means that their character is involved. And when you start doing that level of meaning attribution, that their character is less than, you're not who I thought you were, then it

Whitney (19:50)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jeri Peterson (19:51)
becomes more destructive to the relationship.

Whitney (19:54)
we talked a lot in the last pack podcast about dehumanizing, flattening them to this one thing. And then we can start to to have contempt for them or, even hate them because we've decided they are emotionally unavailable, or we've decided they're an idiot, and it doesn't always come out through, saying that out loud. It could be

Through passive aggressiveness, through eye rolling. early in my marriage and I had a a teenage part of me that rolled eyes and it wasn't helpful. You know, it's really demeaning to the other person and it essentially just ends the conversation.

Jeri Peterson (20:30)
Yeah, I'll match that with Yes,

Whitney (20:33)
With vulnerability.

Jeri Peterson (20:36)
I I mean I I can be guilty in in my early marriage. I could be guilty of maybe I'm not exactly saying it, but I could be guilty of giving a flippant

you know, well, you know, kind of just a very and and I mean that kind of spunk is nice at at on one level, but then if you turn it to relational issues, that's really not the best. Being more present and accessible and and actually caring about what the other person which it's not true anyway. That flippancy is not, I don't care. It's

I care a whole lot and I don't want you to see that, so I'm gonna act like I don't. Right. So

Whitney (21:16)
Mm-hmm.

Jeri Peterson (21:17)
right. It j like the eye roll, it's not helpful. And a more honest thing would be tuning in, leaning

Whitney (21:22)
Mm-hmm.

Jeri Peterson (21:22)
in. A tuning.

Whitney (21:24)
Yeah, 'cause underneath my eye roll is probably a deep fear and vulnerability. Like you said, that I I actually care a lot, but it feels too dangerous or unsafe to show that right now. And so I'll let my teenage self respond instead.

so then back to Maya and Will, how might they be protecting what might be underneath their criticism or their defensiveness when they're just talking about being on the phone?

Jeri Peterson (21:53)
Sometimes it can be very simple, like what is your coming home ritual, your work to home ritual. And sometimes that just needs a little tweaking. If you're hungry and exhausted when you leave work, maybe there's room for negotiating in in a calmer time.

what your ritual should be. Maybe when you come through the door, it's not being hit with my day was like this, and you know, I I need you to I need to confide in you. Maybe that's not the time. Maybe there needs to be a built-in, okay, our ritual is going to look like when we come through the door, we give each other a little decompression time. whether that's a shower, the day goes down the drain, and then we're ready to connect. Or maybe it can just be five minutes of

Let me put my keys down and you know let's keep it to a light greeting and then over dinner let's talk about things. So sometimes it can be agreed upon in a calmer time that maybe the ritual needs tweaking.

Whitney (22:48)
Yeah, maybe Will is really overwhelmed by his day at work. he might be trying to down regulate or calm his nervous system by scrolling. and maybe there's a a better way to do that. but that's something that Maya doesn't know because

She's activated and hasn't asked yet what's going on for Will.

Jeri Peterson (23:07)
She's personalized that that's about her when he might be desperately needing some dopamine.

Whitney (23:13)
And that doesn't mean that we can't bring some of the work stuff to our partner who could help us work through it. But I think the way we do it is really important.

let's say I've been the one who has the kids after school. and three to six o'clock is the worst time of day because they're tired, they have homework, they are hungry, they're all the halts. and then

If your husband comes in and if he had a stressful day at work, he's now bringing the heaviness and the stress to this place that already feels like I'm trying to feed people and help them with homework and and and so I can respond pretty negatively in that moment

If I'm not feeling curious toward him because it just feels like more overwhelm to my afternoon. and then that shuts him down and he really wants to talk about what happened and just have someone hear him. what's a good idea for a ritual in that moment?

Jeri Peterson (24:08)
are there rituals in place right now that take the responsibility on the self to how am I adjusting from work to home? What am I doing? Do I walk across a stone bridge and the rain washes day off? And then when I arrive home, I'm free of the day and I'm ready to dive in.

Or is there something else? how many spoons per se do I have to be there for my spouse? to be there for my partner. And I think those are important things to establish. Do you have two spoons left? If you have no spoons left, is there some way to in the future spend less spoons when you're out and about doing the things?

How can you conserve energy or regain it? What are the things that draw your energy out of you? What are the things that rebuild it? And then to learn from that how you can conserve or get some back so you have something left at the end of the day.

Whitney (25:01)
that ritual that's helped us is

Saying, let's focus on the kids right now, get them to bed, and then then we'll talk about it in the hot tub afterward, or we'll sit down and talk about it on the couch afterward. and in that instance the ritual is just naming when we're gonna come back to the stress

Jeri Peterson (25:19)
Because then without saying it up front, you're also saying, I've got one spoon right now. I want to hear you later when I've got more spoons. So that's a good conversation when you're not in the situation to say, Hey, let's talk about our work to home ritual. What are the cues we could give each other? What's our couple shorthand that says

I've got plenty of spoons or I have none. but I care and I want I want to know later what's going on with you.

Whitney (25:44)
Yeah. So in our story Will is low on spoons, he's tired, and this is where curiosity could be an interruption to this pattern of disconnect and this pattern of criticism from Maya. You're always on your phone, and defensiveness or withdrawal from Will of

I'm retired, you know, what do you expect of me? you're always getting on to me. but we could interrupt that pattern with curiosity.

Jeri Peterson (26:11)
Yes, this is where curiosity becomes an intervention. It's not an interrogation or a way to prove your point. It's the willingness to say my first interpretation might not be the whole story. And so curiosity also can be a pathway to humility.

Whitney (26:26)
there's a connection between curiosity and greater intimacy. And that ability to be curious isn't just a personality trait that we're born with or not. it's actually a skill that we can grow.

There was a meta-analysis of 41 randomized studies where interventions were used to increase curiosity or enhance curiosity. and it showed that it's possible. We can practice curiosity and it can then be strengthened. so what does genuine relational curiosity sound like?

Jeri Peterson (26:58)
being really good at open-ended questions is such a great skill. And you can completely empathize and display your curiosity by asking.

open-ended questions. wow you must have felt this. Really? I can see how you'd feel that. Well what about this? And another open-ended question. So they are getting to you know pour out and you're not having to spend any spoons. You're just asking questions and empathizing. You're circling around their emotion.

You're guessing at what they might feel and letting them correct you to what they did feel, and then you're leaning into their feeling, saying, I can understand how you'd feel that way in that circumstance. So they're getting their dopamine, they're getting their cup filled, and you're not exerting any energy. You're just asking an open ended question and circling empathetically around their emotion.

Whitney (27:48)
Yeah, so Maya could ask, Will, you seem really tired. what was your day like, or what happened at work today? and that's a really different question than an interrogating or a leading question. when we've already made an assumption about someone, like they don't care about me, and they're just gonna be on their phone, then that question is probably gonna sound pretty different. maybe like,

Another stressful day at work, huh?

we can ask questions and our intention cannot actually be, to learn about them and their day. It can be to prove a point. maybe I'm even setting them up well, let me tell you about my day. I had eight clients and I had to deal with this

Dishwasher that leaked all over the house. And then I got a report from the teacher that our kid did this. we do need to slow down and notice if we are asking a question in order to prove a point or be passive aggressive in some way.

Jeri Peterson (28:43)
It's difficult

to stay curious when you feel hurt or rejected, or criticized or ashamed. But that's important self work to check in with our feelings ourselves. running to certainty is easy. That is a quick fix and

It's not a generous hearted conclusion to come to. I'm going to attribute meaning to you by creating certainty for myself. So pausing with that and recognizing that that pattern causes us to feel more separate, that we can slow down ourselves and check in with what we are feeling. And so if we're feeling neglected or if we're feeling rejected.

then we can deal with our own feeling So we're checking in with ourself and doing the work ourselves. We don't need any interaction to wonder what message is attached to that feeling of rejection.

He didn't make eye contact with me or lately I've felt disconnected from him and I'm scared. What that means for us, And so with that self-work, you can come to the conclusion, is there anything actionable in there? Yes, there is. There's something I can do. I can create a situation for connection.

Whitney (29:49)
Yeah, and we can practice curiosity as a behavior, even if we aren't, totally feeling it. Let's say there is that part of me that feels very hurt or rejected. and then he's home late from work

Maya's experiencing, this chronic disconnection while he goes to his phone every night so there is some real hurt there, but that doesn't mean we can't still practice curiosity, which could even sound like, what were the best and worst parts of your day today?

And again, we may not even initially feel curious. We might just be practicing the behavior of being curious. but then if we really listen and follow up

with another question, we might start to actually feel it too. We might feel more interest in them as a person, a dynamic changing individual that we can never fully have figured out.

sometimes we have to practice it even when we don't

let's say Maya and Will are in this fight where she's pretty convinced, he's addicted to his phone. we don't have any emotional connection anymore. and maybe she does have a lot of hurt from that.

Does it require Maya to abandon that hurt and that perspective to be curious toward Will and what's going on for him?

Jeri Peterson (31:03)
if we do a little processing on our own, we're in a better frame of mind. And we've taken care of ourselves. So we're not in such a state of

indeed. if we're attuned to our own emotional climate and then we're also talking to ourselves if we're processing ourselves, then we're more able to show up with a more emotionally intelligent conversation and we can be a little more curious and a little more generous.

Whitney (31:27)
So what could Maya ask Will instead of assuming he doesn't care?

Jeri Peterson (31:32)
If a person feels intense need, it's difficult to lighten up to the point where you feel curious. If you're looking at curiosity as your feelings need to be in that mode, I'm feeling curious. But if you're looking at it as no, this isn't an intervention skill, it moves it out of the realm of a feeling into a skill set. So if I'm going to practice curiosity,

Whether I feel curious or not is not a question. I'm going to practice curiosity because that's more helpful to my relationship than meaning attribution or certainty. So I'm going to discipline myself basically. I'm going to make a discipline out of it to remain curious on this person that I love.

Whitney (32:11)
what might that sound like? When Maya and Will just finish getting all the kids down, she walks in the living room and sees him scrolling endlessly on his phone. What would curiosity sound like from Maya?

Jeri Peterson (32:24)
Hey, hi, how are you doing? What are you looking at?

Whitney (32:28)
Mm. Yeah. So you could join in with him on what

he's looking at and then, it'd probably get boring after a little bit, maybe shift to something you're doing together.

what could Will ask Maya instead of deciding that, nothing he does is ever enough?

Jeri Peterson (32:42)
Another possibility. So when we look at curiosity, we're open to another possibility besides what we think we're certain of. so instead of being certain that he's not enough or that nothing he does is enough, he's open to the curiosity of maybe it's something else with her, maybe she is.

needing just a proper greeting. So it could be as simple as I need to put my phone down so I can embrace my wife. Or how can I acknowledge her? Her comment made it seem like maybe she meant something else. Maybe she missed me. Which is a lot different than here we go, I'm not enough. she misses me. That would be a little step up in understanding.

Whitney (33:24)
And a really good phrase here is the story I'm telling myself is so Will in that instance, the story I'm telling myself is that she is always mad and nothing I do is ever enough for her. She's always just gonna be mad.

then there's what the reality of the situation is. maybe the reality is she misses me and she doesn't know how to express that.

the goal of curiosity, isn't necessarily agreement, but it's greater accuracy or greater understanding of what's really going on for the other person.

Jeri Peterson (33:59)
So would you have said that it takes some processing of your own feeling, thinking, and behavior to arrive at

a place where you are able to be curious?

Whitney (34:08)
I think to be truly curious, because we'd have to ask those parts of us to step back. We'd have to have some distance from our hurt and pain or anger to actually be curious. but

at the same time I think you

can practice it without fully emotionally being there. baby steps, we can practice asking questions, and just listening, validating. but

Probably to do that we probably need some awareness of our hurt and pain and how we're gonna step out of that to really be there for the other person.

Jeri Peterson (34:42)
I like your

IFS approach too because it gives you permission to feel several things at the same time, each equally valid. part of you can feel neglected while a part of you notices how handsome your husband is. so you could choose which you want to act on or not.

Doesn't mean you're neglecting yourself if you choose to notice your husband's attractivity, my husband's great looking guy. you can even lead with that because that pulls closer rather than you always, you never. If I'm acting on a sense of neglect, there you go, no is in the phone. Rather than what a great looking guy. Lucky me, get over here. You know, where's my hug?

And then going, I missed you, or I need to talk to you, you got spoons. Or, you know, leading with something, a part of us that is actually grateful or actually curious.

Whitney (35:36)
Yeah. And it doesn't mean that those parts still aren't there that hold maybe the anger or the hurt or the feelings of neglect.

Jeri Peterson (35:43)
Yes.

Whitney (35:44)
but we're not acting from those parts. we can have some separation from them.

Jeri Peterson (35:49)
That is a skill. That's metacognition. to be able to sit back and take a point of view of you're an observer of your own thinking and feeling and choosing is powerful because it gives you that ability to feel separate yet connected to your own emotion, your own thoughts, and your own behavior. And that's where you can interject.

an intervention. Okay, so my knee-jerk reaction is this. My spontaneous reaction is this. My thoughtful reaction and response is this.

Whitney (36:21)
And in IFS We would call that leading with self or our core self, true self. that we can have a curiosity toward this person, while still acknowledging again there's these parts of us that have hurt or have pain. but

Those can still be there and they may not even be, perfectly reconciled with this partner that's contributed to some of that hurt and pain.

it's probably not all from them, but maybe they've contributed to some of it. but that could still be unhealed.

at the time that I show curiosity toward them because again I don't have to act out of that part of me that holds the the pain or but I could act from self which recognizes there's that pain there, but they're also still a person who had a hard day and is deserving of care and respect

And I can, choose to act, from self or from those parts of us that hold the pain and say, You're always in your phone,

Jeri Peterson (37:17)
And it might be true.

they might be spending too much time in their phone to feel better in the moment to regain some of their energy. And that's a legitimate conversation. do you think we spend too much time scrolling? What else could we do?

Whitney (37:30)
because we're wired for connection, they'd probably be open to that if that question is coming from self. A let's have more fun together, let's be curious about each other, let's create something together, or let's just even enjoy a show together. whatever you have the spoons for that night.

when we're coming from this place of pain or hurt, they're just gonna feel attacked and that's not too inviting. they're not gonna wanna put their phone down to join in on that.

And so we do have to have some kind of awareness of the parts of ourselves or the different emotions we feel and step out of it to to listen as a friend. And sometimes I give that analogy to couples or remind to myself, that I wanna listen as a friend. Like a friend doesn't have any agenda. when you call your girlfriend on the phone,

They don't have a point to prove as soon as you call them. they just listen and they say, my gosh, that's terrible, or what, they feel with you, and then that's it. that's exactly what our partner needs, but it's really hard to do that when we're acting from or all we can feel are these parts of us that have this anger, resentment, pain, hurt.

And so there are some ways to step out of that, even when those things again aren't perfectly healed or reconciled.

Jeri Peterson (38:42)
I like to use the sticky notes. have you seen this? It's literal sticky notes.

Whitney (38:48)
Mm.

Jeri Peterson (38:49)
One says inner critic, and the second one is feeling judged, and the third one is supportive friend. And you can stick them on your computer screen edge or on your mirror until you figure out, that you're going to fire the inner critic. You're gonna fire feeling judged.

And you're going to embrace the supportive friend. So if she does that for herself, she's going to have a lot more energy to move into curiosity. and that sense of self-criticism, we can turn that toward others, and it's not useful in the relationship. And the feeling judged, that's not useful in the relationship either. So this is

another skill that is part of becoming curious, it's really hard if you've got an inner critic that's really loud or feeling judged. And so if you fire that out of your own psyche, they're not useful. And then you embrace the supportive friend, then you're also able to show up as that in your relationships.

Whitney (39:44)
Like that. and so Maya and Will could think, if I've fallen out of love, this relationship is going nowhere, it's time for this to end. And I

always give the disclaimer, in cases of abuse, that might really be what is needed. emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, manipulation where harm is taking place, then that could absolutely be what is needed. but we're talking about in relationships with generally healthy people,

Where it's more about disconnection and a lack of curiosity and then we attribute meaning to that, to that disconnect that we've just fallen out of love with them and it's time to go find someone else.

I

I think the problem with that is we can end this relationship, but it doesn't automatically end our relational patterns. And then we carry those strategies, those defenses, those fears, those sticky notes you mentioned, that inner critic, that judge.

Jeri Peterson (40:39)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney (40:39)
we carry that into the next relationship. and honestly, we're probably gonna find someone that has a similar dynamic.

to the relationship we just ended because it's what, in some way, it's what feels familiar. And so when I feel disconnect, if I criticize, we're probably gonna find someone that again just withdraws

Because it'd feel really weird if they just start fighting me back, and so we're gonna end up just recreating these dynamics often. it's not a curse, but if we don't sit down, reflect, work on changing these patterns, we're probably just gonna recreate them in the next relationship.

Jeri Peterson (41:16)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney (41:17)
and maybe not at the beginning, because you'll have the novelty and the thrill and the unknown and excitement, but then once that wears out.

am I really gonna do something different when I see that partner? Maybe he's not on his phone. Maybe he's out mowing the lawn and making our house look immaculate. but I still feel this disconnect. and I'm probably gonna do the same thing, which is

criticize him. And so without awareness we can just recreate these same patterns, these same dances with somewhat new

Jeri Peterson (41:47)
I've watched couples just physically relax and become relieved with the thought that this is just a skill set. Because we don't come with a manual. Marriage doesn't come with a manual. There's a lot of books and research now, thankfully. And then when we run out of skills in an area, if if we're going to therapy to grab more skills.

Putting it in those terms seems helpful, helps people relax because really I think people understand that that certainty is the way out. And that's not really what they're wanting. most times it's they want a solution. They just don't have the skills. And so when we break it down into, okay, we're going to drop skill blocks. There'll be some that are more useful, we can adapt them to you, and here we go.

for people who are motivated and ready to go to that level of honesty with themselves and others, it can be very rapid.

the work that they get done in a short period of time and the results. Sometimes if you shift one thing in the foundation, the whole thing seems to work better and they're very encouraged to do the next step.

Whitney (42:48)
that actually makes it hopeful that it's not that I've just fallen out of love and that's very black and white. You're either in love or you're not in love. It's just that we've lost connection and we need to learn the skills and tools to rebuild it.

Jeri Peterson (43:04)
I

had a couple say that instead of starting over with someone new, we'd like to learn the skills in our current relationship.

That's a great

and logical choice.

Whitney (43:15)
And really the more hopeful choice because you have some agency there. It's not just like this relationship has its mind of its own and it's either dead or alive, I'm either in love or out of love.

Uhhuh. It's not a thing.

if it's this nebulous thing that has a life of its own.

Jeri Peterson (43:30)
And that's part

of our work is to help people understand in our humanity we are making decisions all day. We're turning off and on our gene switches even all day. So there's not a such thing as our feelings are our identity or we are our feelings or their facts or we're led around by them

it is a decision. it's a conscious decision to divert our attention to certainty. And it's a conscious regaining of our power.

to divert it to curiosity. It's up to us.

Whitney (44:00)
and one's gonna lead to oxytocin and feelings of being in love, that closeness, that proximity. again, the hormone that moms are flooded with when they give birth to a baby. that makes them love that crinkly crying thing. and I think curiosity could lead to more oxytocin, which leads to feelings of being in love.

Jeri Peterson (44:22)
Yes, agreed.

Whitney (44:23)
Can fall back into love. But you have to do you have to choose it. You have to jump into it head first.

Jeri Peterson (44:29)
Yes.

It's like owning a pool. You'd rather own one than to randomly ever encounter one. I randomly fell in love and then I randomly fell out. Well, I bought the pool and I can use it when I want to, right? So if I

Whitney (44:41)
Mm-hmm.

Jeri Peterson (44:42)
can use my oxytocin in that way, I'll do it.

Whitney (44:45)
Yep, the pool doesn't s come up out of nowhere and snatch you or pull you in.

Jeri Peterson (44:50)
Right.

It's time to swim.

Whitney (44:53)
But actually the choices I make in the relationship to build connection are gonna lead to me, having these positive feelings of being in love, we're really referring to oxytocin and closeness. that I

Have this hormone in me that enjoys being close to this person, we can actually develop that or increase it through some of these tools like curiosity. but sometimes we have again too much hurt and pain to allow ourselves to do that.

And

I do want to point out that that hurt and pain may not necessarily be from your partner. a lot of times we think that it is, but from an attachment perspective, a IFS perspective, psychodynamic perspective, a lot of the hurt and pain in a relationship is actually something we brought into the relationship from our past.

Can be referred to as unfinished business that we then try to work out with our partner, try to find healing, or we just reharm each other. so you might think back to Maya, who's feeling

alone, not paid attention to, not cared for. and again, some of that has been Will's actions. but those actions are probably just an echo of what Maya has felt in the past. when maybe other situations where she actually was neglected or

where she really wasn't cared for, Maybe her early attachment figures, maybe they weren't there for her. maybe she was left to fend for herself pretty often, emotionally or physically. you know, maybe she was the one cooking dinner at night for all of her siblings

While a parent was at work and maybe another parent was drinking. so there really is a deep pain of not being cared for and neglect that she's bringing into this relationship with Will. And then attributing all of that to Will, that it's really him. he is the source and the cause of this pain.

Jeri Peterson (46:47)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney (46:49)
But maybe it's an old wound that's been there for decades. And he's just touching it with with some of his actions.

Jeri Peterson (46:56)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney (46:57)
which again doesn't make those actions not painful, but maybe they aren't what actually caused the wound, and maybe we're seeing it as no, it's all Will. he's terrible and he's uncaring and he's hurt me so deeply.

Jeri Peterson (47:12)
Yeah, so there may not be an awareness that they have a built-up warehouse or that she might be dealing with a reservoir of unresolved pain from past, if it's family of origin, a caregiver was neglectful. And or maybe she is aware and maybe she's told herself, I'll never let that happen to me again. And so now he becomes f in her eyes.

the same as you're doing what I said I would never let happen to me again. So he becomes the enemy then that she is against. This is never gonna happen to me. She's created that rule. Maybe she created as a child even, but she's unaware of the mechanism that his behavior has lifted the separation between the reservoir of the past and the and the current incident. So it's all flooding in. So it's disproportionate.

It's an inordinate response. But that is a great key. So that's an identifying factor. If it's an inordinate response, usually it's about past wounding. And then to be able to understand and separate, differentiate out past wounding from present activation and to give yourself a break in that and give your partner a break. Hey, I'm healing past wounds.

And so I'm sensitive in this area right now. I'm working on healing it. But when you're on your phone, it's an activating factor, it's a trigger. So then he can be sensitive while she's healing. that's a great conversation and it's a great possibility.

Whitney (48:36)
But then if Maya just decides, I don't love him anymore, I've fallen out of love, she's gonna enter a new relationship with those same wounds. and again they're still gonna be there until she can turn some attention to them

what well would Maya need to do then? Let's say they don't end up practicing this skill of curiosity. they stay chronically disconnected. What personal work could interrupt this repetition or could interrupt this pattern for Maya before she starts another relationship?

Jeri Peterson (49:08)
her personal work includes owning her own feeling and thinking and choosing. And if she can take a metacognition standpoint, step back and learn that skill, either through parts work or other kinds of work where you can become the observer to yourself, then she'll begin to understand why.

She is impatient in that territory. She wants to just go to certainty rather than curiosity. Why is she lacking? she doesn't feel particularly mag magnanimous about this. Either it's an ongoing pattern or it's about past wounding. So that gives her space with her own work to dissect it and figure out where is that coming from? when's the first time I felt like that? What was going on in in that moment? Did I make a rule?

Did I adopt a core belief? Is that affecting my relationship today? And all of that work can have in the individual and then she can grab those skills and bring them in and then it changes the entire conversation.

Whitney (50:04)
what does safe enough for curiosity look like? how does Maya know when she enters that room that it's actually safe enough to be curious rather than create emotional distance by being critical?

Jeri Peterson (50:18)
Is she afraid her needs won't be met if she literally becomes vulnerable and brings up her real feelings and needs in the moment? So I think what might stop her is if she is afraid that he wouldn't be receptive if she was level to that honest, if she was honest to that level.

Whitney (50:37)
he could be cruel or be sarcastic, critical.

Jeri Peterson (50:41)
Yeah. Maybe her worst fear is that it's actually true that she may not be worthy of his love and attention and maybe that is an early childhood message. So that takes a little digging around to find out what's her core belief.

Whitney (50:55)
And in that case, let's say Will does act like that. He's cruel, sarcastic. Maya's still, responsible for her.

Behavior in it. they're both 100% responsible for their part. We're talking about a dynamic, a pattern, a cycle. but each partner is a hundred percent responsible for how they show up. and I think Maya could own her criticism without excusing his harmful response. she could say,

Yeah, it came in really critical there instead of curious about you will. but that that doesn't make his sarcastic response her fault, or it doesn't excuse that.

Jeri Peterson (51:36)
Showing up sounds like

I feel dismissed when you come through the door on your phone. And you know how you could shine for me is put your phone down and be present with me.

Whitney (51:47)
So what do we do when Maya's trying to build the skill of curiosity. She comes in, maybe she does get that response from Will of sarcasm or like he's just really not interested in connection.

Maybe he's unwilling to participate in a repair. what does Maya do then?

Jeri Peterson (52:04)
If she is processing her own feelings and where they come from, what messages are attached, and if there's anything actionable, she has done most of the work already in returning her nervous system to homeostasis. She's okay at that point. Then it's a simple ask: Are you willing to have a conversation about this? And if the answer is no, well, can you tell me when you would be or

then she is at a neutral, four or five on the scale of one to ten of emotional activation. She's neutral, she's okay, and she's able to ask him more objectively. She can afford it.

Whitney (52:39)
and I think from that she can really learn where Will is in the relationship. Like is he unwilling or unable to participate in repairing it by staying calm and curious. you actually learn a lot about the other person, for better or worse.

what signs would suggest, maybe Will's defensive at the beginning, but then he softens and he joins her in, even just talking about their day or talking about how they they miss spending time together. what signs would suggest that that partner is unwilling or unable to participate in repair?

Jeri Peterson (53:16)
Signs that he would be or disinterested, or is he just stuck in a pattern? Still, curiosity is a great door to go through to find out if they've got a willingness to understand. if you can shift from certainty, maybe he is in a place of certainty. Maybe he's doing the same thing. if the antidote is curiosity.

Practices that move you toward curiosity are pausing before you react, so you're taking care of yourself and getting curious about them and asking better questions and seeking to understand, not when. Many times those tactics will soften the other person and they will go, well maybe, maybe I was wrong. Maybe my determination is wrong.

So there are things you can do if they're not on board, if maybe he is practicing contempt.

doesn't stop you from shifting by leaning in to understand you don't have to agree.

Before we close, choose one recent moment of disconnection. Keep it small enough that you can think clearly about it. First, name only what a camera would record. I was talking and you looked at your phone, not you ignored me because you don't care. Second, name the meaning you assigned. I told myself that I was not important to you.

Third, identify that meaning made you feel and do like this. I felt rejected, so I criticized you and stopped telling you what happened. Fourth, ask what was happening inside your partner. What was going on in you in that moment? Then ask one genuine follow-up question before defending yourself.

The listening partner can ask, what did that moment mean to you? What did you need from me? Is this feeling connected to other moments between us? What am I still missing about your experience? The goal isn't immediate agreement. The goal is a fuller and more accurate picture through understanding.

Whitney (55:01)
We're almost treating the partner as a stranger that we don't know. And we wanna get to know them and get to know what that moment was like for them, what was going on in their minds. and often that explanation creates empathy in us. We start to see them for who they really are, which is not someone out to get us or not someone that

truly wants to be alone because again we're wired for connection. and once we have that explanation of what was going on for them, we can often have more empathy.

I firmly believe that all behaviors have explanations. we don't just do things. and the explanation again usually isn't we just did this because we're so selfish or because we just wanted to hurt someone. there's usually a pretty reasonable or understandable explanation behind why someone did something. and

Being curious allows us to learn what that is and and have empathy for it.

Jeri Peterson (55:58)
We can all take responsibility for our twelve percent of any unfortunate event. And so being willing to do that is humbling and that's part of curiosity.

Whitney (56:07)
So

let's imagine Maya and Will six months later. Maybe they stay together.

They begin

noticing how quickly Maya turns hurt into certainty, and how quickly Will turns shame into withdrawal. They learn to name the cycle instead of naming each other as the problem. Maya says, I can feel myself deciding that you don't care. Can you tell me what's actually happening?

Will says, I can feel myself wanting to leave because I think I've already failed. I need a minute, but I want to come back. Their relationship does not become perfect, it becomes more open.

Maya understands that she needs responsiveness, and she also understands that she must speak her vulnerability before it becomes contempt. Will understands that he needs room to regulate, and he also understands that taking space without returning becomes abandonment. They carry lessons forward instead of carrying only blame.

it can feel like we have fallen out of love. but it's worth asking what happened on the way here? Did love just disappear? or did curiosity disappear first?

Did you stop caring? Or did you become so certain about your partner that you stopped encountering them as a living, changing person, a dynamic individual?

if you leave, consider what part of that relationship you're likely to take with you.

The point isn't to shame anyone into staying. The point is to become conscious enough that whether you repair the relationship or end it, you don't have to keep repeating it. Love is not only something we feel, but it's something we practice. And curiosity is one of the practices that keeps another person from disappearing beneath the story that we've created about them.

Thanks for listening to the human work. We'll see you next time.