Whitney H (00:03)
Today we're talking about something almost every couple experiences, but rarely names well. That feeling of being stuck in a back and forth, where the harder you pull, the harder the other person pulls back. In Gottman work, we sometimes describe this as a kind of tug of war. And the question we want to explore today is, what actually happens when you stop pulling? And before we talk about how to step out of it, we should probably define it.

because most couples are in it without even realizing it. So, Jerry, when you think about the tug of war dynamic, what does that actually look like in real relationships?

Jeri Peterson (00:46)
I think it often surfaces in an identifiable way when there might be a heightened sense of criticism showing up or which leads to defensiveness sometimes and then there's an escalation or a withdrawal.

Whitney H (01:05)
So then what, how do you notice that a couple is maybe stuck in a tug of war when you're working with them or when you're in it yourself?

Jeri Peterson (01:19)
It actually feels like a tug of war, think, that each person is pulling to be ⁓ heard and to be understood.

Whitney H (01:33)
⁓ And maybe like a real tug of war game, like as it keeps going, escalate. People on both sides start pulling harder and the teams on each side start screaming louder. And people on both sides are getting exhausted. But why is it so hard to let go of the tug of war?

Jeri Peterson (02:05)
Sometimes we just want to be heard and so whatever style we have of conflict can contribute to how we go about that. And if we feel unheard, then we might raise the tension on that rope. Or if we're feeling blamed, that's another reason why we might pull harder. ⁓ Or certainly when we feel disconnected and we're scrambling to get that renewed sense of connection.

Whitney H (02:37)
as a fighting to be heard, a fighting to protect yourself, and then a fighting for connection.

Jeri Peterson (02:46)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney H (02:50)
do you often find that it's about the actual issue that people are talking about or does it seem like it's underneath that?

Jeri Peterson (03:00)
It seems not to be that way, especially when people report things like everything is a fight. You know, we can't seem to talk about anything. It turns into a big fight. Small issues turning into large conflicts. Or you can identify also a result of your emotional sense of safety decreases and resentment builds.

Whitney H (03:25)
Mm hmm.

Mm hmm.

So if a couple notices they're in the tug of war, they feel it, ⁓ the back and forth, things are escalating, what should they do?

Jeri Peterson (03:52)
if they are struggling with a tug of war and maybe not even realizing that's what they're doing, it might have morphed into another dynamic. ⁓

So I think just a bit of, you know, checking in with the client to find out, you know, what is your conflict style and what seems to be happening here? You know, what is your gut level idea of what's going on here? And it's a good starting point with the people that know themselves and their patterns best.

to be able to just identify, it does feel like a tug of war, and then to present, well, what would happen if we didn't do that? What if we acted opposite? Instead of increasing the tension by pulling or just completely withdrawing, ⁓ what if we consider there could be another way of conflict?

Whitney H (04:53)
And as far as types of conflict, I'm thinking about the Gottman's three categories of avoider, validator, and in my mind it's a fighter, but do you remember how they describe that one? Volatile, yes. ⁓

Jeri Peterson (05:09)
volatile. Yes.

Whitney H (05:17)
⁓ And we can all probably sit back and maybe think about how we show up in conflict predominantly. We all can switch between the categories, but for the most part, we tend to stick in one, in one style. ⁓

Would you tell us a little bit maybe about those different types of conflict styles?

Jeri Peterson (05:45)
Yes, those three styles I learned are ⁓ not the only three styles, but they are the ones that can have a good result. So if you're met with other styles, which their book fight right lines out, I guess, hostile and hostile detached, those are signals that we need to have full stop and then look at that dynamic and then back up, do some repair and get back to, OK, in actuality, are we avoiders, validators?

or volatile, ⁓ volatiles. So, avoidance is, is as it, as it infers, if, if there's a fear that it's going to escalate beyond repair, then just both parties just going silent or causing space to be there, just definitely avoiding conflict or then validating is, is trying to see the other, other person.

⁓ And yet it can slide into rising negativity if the problem is not resolved or you don't feel heard. And then volatile, of course, you know, some people can be very successful if they have a volatile complex style and they can still maneuver like that. ⁓ And it includes humor. It includes not going dark or sarcastic or critical.

because that's the weapons we don't want to use in a volatile style.

Whitney H (07:20)
Yeah, it is interesting how it's not that a validating style is the only correct one, but we can actually show up in conflict in different ways and still have success or still reach a healthy outcome. So when we think about the tug of war, intuitively it makes sense. If I really care about something or I really want the other person to know,

Jeri Peterson (07:38)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney H (07:49)
that's not why I did what I did, that I'm gonna push harder, I'm gonna pull harder, and I'm gonna keep fighting for my voice to be heard. ⁓ But in relationships, that tends to do the opposite of what we want, ⁓ keeps us from getting the outcome that we're looking for, which I think is ⁓ peace, and not a false peace of we're just gonna avoid it and let go, but a true peace of...

feeling heard, understood, and then negotiating to finding something that works for both of us. ⁓ But why does pushing harder actually create more resistance rather than resolution?

Jeri Peterson (08:34)
I think it might, for some people, increase the sense of not being heard, not being listened to, maybe bypassed or unimportant. ⁓ pushing harder would accentuate that I'm standing up for myself or I'm standing up for the relationship. So I'm going to push harder to be heard and understood, knowing the intentions are good.

It makes sense that until a couple would just give up, they would be trying harder in the only way they knew. And if it's the tug of war, then it gets more and more intense.

Whitney H (09:15)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and we can think about what happens in the nervous system as, again, that literal tug of war fight is happening. ⁓ Your heart rate is going to continue to increase. You're going to get sweaty. You're going to get exhausted. ⁓ And then the other person is going to feel your nervous system escalating or going into hyper arousal. And it's going to...

We talked about this last week in attachment, it's going to cause theirs to heighten and they're going to get ⁓ more into hyper arousal of their nervous system where they're ready for the fight. So even if you're pushing for something that you think is good and right, it's escalating both of our nervous systems. ⁓ at some point when you're in that state of just heightened arousal, you...

stop being able to hear the other person. ⁓

And more often than not, even if you're both fighting for something good, if your body is again on high alert and ready for a fight, ⁓ that might be the time that we get into extreme hyper arousal and we're lashing out or getting into hostility, saying things just to hurt the other person or some kind of revenge. ⁓

And a lot of times we just don't have to get there. It doesn't need to get there or that unhelpful end to the fight, to the tug of war. So instead of pulling harder, Gottman talks about doing something different, not winning, but understanding. So what does it actually mean to lay down the rope?

Jeri Peterson (11:06)
Mm.

Whitney H (11:20)
in a real moment. ⁓

Jeri Peterson (11:24)
Okay, so if we're considering something different and we realize that we're spending a lot of energy to attack and defend or to shut down and withdraw, then we're asking for what else can be done. So the shift would be ⁓ literally laying down that rope, agreeing that that's not working and to try a different style.

And. ⁓

So agreeing first of all to lay down the rope, you know, and kind of breathe into a different space. I've seen couples just literally relax their body language relaxes. And then when, you know, we talk about repair or how do we even begin? And sometimes we just need to switch to Gottman's talk about the aftermath of a regrettable site or a regrettable incident. And there's a pathway back and it looks like ⁓

Definitely letting the rope drop and just taking the posture of leaning in. That's the first step.

Whitney H (12:38)
When I think of leaning in, I'm staying present with the other person and then I'm looking to understand their perspective or where they were coming from. Maybe what else comes into leaning in?

Jeri Peterson (12:39)
you

If it becomes, you introduce the idea of perspectives thinking. And so then in perspectives thinking, it's, it's, it ceases to be about who's right. We have to surrender that right to be right. It's upon the decision, you know, do we want the relationship to thrive or do we want to be right? And usually with that decision tree, a couple will choose, I want the relationship. So I will

⁓ surrender my right to be right. That's no longer what this is about. And ⁓ lean in for, can I really hear your perspective? And then guiding into the new pathways of what do I actually feel? The ability to get vulnerable. If you drop the rope, take a breath, agree to lean in, that creates a little more emotional safety in the moment. And we're able to

feel safe to say, okay, I really feel this way about the scenario and here's why. And that's the other person has the opportunity to lean in and say, you feel that way? Really? And then I didn't really realize you were feeling all of those things. The aftermath of a fight or regrettable incident actually has cues to get us started. And you just follow the steps, identifying what each is feeling, validating that.

asking questions, becoming curious, and that's a really great start.

Whitney H (14:38)
Mm.

⁓ A lot of couples argue about household duties. ⁓ Who does more? There's a book about this. There's a set of cards called

There's a book about this, a set of cards called Fair Play, because a lot of couples argue about ⁓ an equitable split in the household tasks. And I think that's exacerbated by the shift in the past few decades of more women working full time, and then they're still stuck with some of the ⁓ perceptions of what the women's

job is in the house and then I hear a lot of women talk about the mental load that they carry that it just seems like their spouse doesn't have to carry because he goes to work, he comes home and ⁓ helps with some chores around the house but she's left with this mental load of the kids doctors appointments and the all the

things the kids need for their events at school, the snacks they need on the certain day. ⁓ Anyway, so that's a common problem where there's a back and forth between couples and fighting for some sense of equity in the household duties. ⁓

I'm curious maybe how you would help someone.

perspective take in that scenario or maybe put down that tug of war of, I do this, this, and this, and this, and well, I do this, this, and this.

How would you help that couple?

Jeri Peterson (16:36)
If a couple is struggling in roles area, they have maybe not a grade on specific roles or they still need to have further conversations and agreements, then using the fight right method, it's less combustible. So you can really lay out the plan. What do we have here? Are you a traditional stay at home spouse? Are you?

both working full time, what is an equitable share? What is each of your perspectives on it? Are you carrying more of the emotional load? Are you carrying more of the logistical load? And so how does each one feel and getting them to talk about a name, what they're feeling emotionally and physically over their load share and how they could become more empathetic to the experience of the other so they could share.

equally or pick up a little more slack.

Whitney H (17:41)
Are there any phrases that maybe when we find ourselves in that tug of war that couples can use to help de-escalate the situation or to lay down their rope?

Jeri Peterson (17:56)
If we remember and reframe and then reiterate the idea of turning toward that when there's a conflict, that's our cue to lean in. This is an opportunity to understand our meat a little better in this particular light. And surprisingly, two thirds of our conflicts are perpetual. One third is resolvable. So if roles is in the perpetual mode right now,

That sounds, you know, since it's involving logistics and emotional sharing, it sounds like maybe it could be moving into the solvable. So having a shared posture of leaning in and then getting curious about each other's experience. And then also the final piece of it is to just share what your dream, feel this way about this scenario and here's my dream outcome, or this is how you could shine for me in this space. And it's just a whole

⁓ shift of empathy and compassion for the other and it gives a sense of we win. So instead of winning the moment, we win the war because we accept that there are going to be perpetual problems and if we keep talking about them, we're successful. And the solvable problems like logistics, we can definitely sit down and empathize with one another and check in with our dream outcomes and compromise.

Whitney H (19:27)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, brings up the idea for me that ⁓ most people don't wake up every morning and intend to hurt their partner or their spouse. They don't intend to be really selfish that day and do nothing to help the family. ⁓ And I think there was some research by the Gottmans where they measured ⁓ intent ⁓ versus impact.

and they could just show how each individual person was coming to the problem, again, not looking to hurt the other person or to get revenge some way, or even to have this massive amount of selfishness where I'm gonna get a sit back and they're gonna do it all. And so, that's the issue where there's

someone out to get the other person or there's a true winner and true loser. It's most often just not being aware of the impact that our words or actions have had on the other person. And until we're aware of that, we don't have an opportunity to change it.

And I think most people want to. Once they're aware that something they're doing is impacting the person they love the most negatively, most people are willing to change that or work toward changing that.

Jeri Peterson (21:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, I think that's what really inspires defense mode is wanting to be understood that our intentions were something else, ⁓ not to cause harm or upset. And I like to throw another third thing in there, expectations, because we arrive at conflict with expectations. ⁓ so an expectation can give a harsh edge.

to the scenario, to the conflict. And if we soften it by intentions and understand that each of our intentions are good toward the other, and we move to that window, and we become aware of the impact even of our intentions, that's a deeper level, then that's just a complete softened system. And one of the elements of a successful conflict is being able to have a soft startup.

So if you can actually know that going into a conflict, it's time to lean in and soften the startup because the outcome is largely determined by the way we enter in. So if we come in with harsh criticism or these expectations that are unmet, it's probably not going to have a good outcome for that session. But if we come in with, know their intentions are good, I want to be mindful of my impact, then there's your soft startup.

Whitney H (22:36)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, sometimes I have couples bring up a problem or hurt and they are not allowed to use the word you. And that's ⁓ a really good way to check if we're coming in with a soft startup. If we can say, ⁓

I am feeling hurt or frustrated because ⁓ when the dishes are left out, when the dishes are all over the sink, ⁓ it feels like I, it's expected that I'm supposed to do it all. So it's a little bit of a mental game there, because we naturally want to say, you left this all over the place and you just think that it's my role to clean it up. ⁓

So even just not even allowing ourselves to say the word you ⁓ can be a practical tool to enter that soft startup, ⁓ focusing on the I'm ⁓ overlooked or I'm feeling disrespected when it seems like that's my role to clean up all the dishes all the time. ⁓

Jeri Peterson (24:00)
You're right. I feel frustrated when XYZ behavior happens or a situation happens. And I was looking forward to what? Together and it matters to me. So filling in those blanks you're talking about, I feel about XYZ and this is my dream outcome. I was really looking forward to spending time together.

and that matters to me. And it's really hard to have a fight about, love you and I miss you.

Whitney H (24:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's interesting how much that's often underneath these tug-of-war moments is more of a sense of lost connection and how hard that can be to turn to this person that we spend so much time with. ⁓ It seems like we should be able to say anything, but it can be really vulnerable to say, I miss you.

Jeri Peterson (24:49)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney H (25:03)
and miss spending time with you. And so that's why being on your phone so much is bringing a lot of anger. ⁓

Maybe we should say that more pretty much anytime there's a conflict. it, go ahead.

Jeri Peterson (25:32)
seems like anger is a shield for the more vulnerable self underneath. in harsh conflict, the tug of war, anger is an element. And what is it bringing to the surface and what is it shielding the more vulnerable emotions? If you're really agitated and pulling on a rope back and forth and it's about who's right and who's winning,

It's hard to be vulnerable in that moment, but if we agree to lay the rope down and lean in for perspectives and understanding more in depth of what is actually going on and be ready to admit, even if it's 16%, where can I take responsibility and accountability for my part, for the impact maybe of my intentions.

Whitney H (26:29)
Yeah. When we're really entrenched in our perspective, ⁓ what can, why is it so difficult to genuinely see your partner's perspective whenever you're in the middle of that conflict?

Jeri Peterson (26:49)
That's a really good question that I don't think I know.

you

Whitney H (26:59)
I would have to imagine it feels like we're losing something if we if we set down our defenses and take their perspective then ⁓

It could feel like we're losing something, we're losing our voice or we're losing the opportunity to... Maybe we're opening ourselves up to hurt. ⁓ If defenses are naturally protective... ⁓

and we stop protecting, we start trusting the other person really has our good in mind and really wants good for us. ⁓ Then maybe we are opening ourselves up to the possibility of being hurt. They could say, actually, I don't care about you at all and I think you deserve to be miserable. Or they might not show empathy when we say how much we're struggling with.

the kids and making dinner at the same time and we need them to help. There is a little risk involved of laying down the roof.

Jeri Peterson (28:17)
That's true. And so if we hit resistance like that, where ⁓ a client is expressing just an unwillingness, either that or just a blatant disregard for empathy, I think that's a signal to respect that that is another shield and to try to find out what's underneath it.

Resistance is a powerful tool for going deeper. It's an opportunity either in that moment or in the following sessions at a later time when they have been able to establish a little more sense of safety. And then they might be willing to go beneath that resistance as to why. And it might look like I'm afraid that I'm not going to be met with the same ⁓ kindness.

coming back to me, if I show compassion or empathy, I'm afraid I won't get it back. Or there's just a backlog of not getting it, that I'm not ready to forgive, not ready to really let that go. So no, I'm not gonna provide this until I feel equal. And that's digging the heels in and it's grabbing that rope, it's feeling right. And so just gently pointing out that

Okay, we can grab the rope and start the tug of war and is that going to give a sense of breakthrough to you? You know, is it going to give you what you're really looking for here, which is probably to be seen and heard and loved.

Whitney H (29:54)
.

And what changes when just one partner in the relationship ⁓ moves toward understanding or lays down the rope?

Jeri Peterson (30:10)
If one will step out and be vulnerable enough to, they can afford it emotionally, and they can step out and say, okay, I'm listening, and really hear and get curious and genuinely show up and make space for their partner's perspective. They'll feel it. They'll know it. They'll feel seen and heard. And then you can guide them into, okay,

Are we ready for the other person's perspective? And there might be a little tension rise there because do I need to defend myself? Do I need? And so just asking for that will slow this down. This is only about perspectives.

Whitney H (30:53)
Is there a difference between agreeing with someone's perspective and understanding it?

Jeri Peterson (31:03)
I think perspectives under the fight right model doesn't require agreement.

I don't think that sharing perspectives requires agreement. just requires understanding and if possible, empathy and then compassion. And in compassion, what follows is usually healing. So if the clients are willing to go there and experience compassion for their partner, that that is their genuine perspective. Each one is valid. Neither one is right.

Whitney H (31:40)
Yeah. Yeah. My husband used to say a lot, it's not a zero-sum game. There's not a winner and loser. And I've come to believe it. took me about a decade, ⁓ there's really very few issues where one person needs to win and the other lose or... ⁓ Usually we can find some negotiation where both people...

feel like their needs are met. ⁓ Both people are giving a little or ⁓ and receiving something in return. ⁓ So I think.

Jeri Peterson (32:23)
Any good negotiation, you're going to give up a little. In the Gottman's, say, draw two concentric circles and put in the first circle, the smallest circle, what you're not willing to budge on, and then in the wider circle, what you're willing to give a little on. And through that exercise, it's another conversation that the couple can look at.

and try to understand why are these areas you're not willing to compromise or budge on. And you are willing to use, and many times in that scenario, they can find the compromise. preserving the relationship and also the longevity of it, since most of our problems are perpetual.

that feels like a win, then the couple is winning. They're successful.

Whitney H (33:11)
 

⁓

I think another reason that it can be hard to lay down the rope is that ⁓ we have to feel safe enough in the relationship that if we put down our defenses, our partner is actually going to be there ⁓ on the other side. And ⁓ not just that they're going to be there, but that they're going to be ⁓ receptive and engaged. ⁓

Thank

Yeah. I think one reason why it's really hard to lay down the rope is we're essentially putting down our defenses and our protectors. And if we're going to put down our defenses and our protectors, then we have to know that the other person is not then going to take their sword and plunge it into our bellies. ⁓ That if we put down the defenses, we put down the protectors and the rope.

⁓ that on the other side we're going to ⁓ someone who is accessible, responsive, and engaged. ⁓ And a lot of times if we come from any kind of relational trauma or any kind of trauma, then we might have the experience that if we put down the defenses or we put down the protectors, we're actually going to be very alone.

and we're gonna look and no one is gonna be there. Or even worse, not gonna, they are gonna be there and they are going to then harm us. And then we're gonna be alone and being harmed by the other. And so for those of experience trauma, it can be terrifying to put down the rope because what if I put it down and then on the other side, it's not.

not someone who can actually be there for me. It was accessible, that can hear me, ⁓ that I can reach someone who's responsive. They're not just going to stonewall me. They're going to be engaged. They're going to give and take and do this negotiating process. So there is a little bit of risk in laying down the rope. ⁓ We're essentially then asking, are you there for me? Do you respond when I reach out to you?

and do I matter to you? And that can be really scary if we don't know what their answer is gonna be on the other side. So sometimes before we can even do this whole process of laying down the rope, we have to do our own personal work on some of our past trauma ⁓ to feel safe enough to risk this, that if they're not there, that we could still be okay. ⁓

or if I can't reach them right away, that I can still be okay. And it's not gonna thrust me back into the, you know, the childhood wounds of feeling not enough or ⁓ not lovable. And so this isn't easy, what we're talking about. It ⁓ takes courage. But I often find that...

The person on the other side wants good for us, ⁓ even if they have their own defenses and their own protective. ⁓

even if they have their own defenses. ⁓

I think one of the hardest truths here is that relationships don't change when one person wins. They change when someone chooses to understand. So don't have to win the tug of war to have a better relationship. Sometimes the strongest move is being willing to put the rope down.

So.

So there are a few things we can do to put down the tug of war and to pause. We might say something like, hey, I can feel myself getting defensive. Let's take a break. Or something like, I can feel myself pulling right now. Let me slow down.

or I'm getting really angry. Let me take a moment and pause and let's come back to this. Another thing we do is when we realize that we're in anger is to slow down and name those softer emotions. So you might think of the acronym A-hen, A is for anger. That's what usually is really easy to show on the surface, but underneath is often something softer and something that

our spouse or partner can identify with or have compassion for. And that's the hen, that's the hurt, the expectation or the need. So I was hurt that it felt like you didn't want to help at all with the kids this afternoon and that you'd rather just be on your phone. Because I really wanted to be all together. Or my expectation was that you would

do 50 % of the child care after work and that seems fair to me or a need. I really need your help and it's really overwhelming when it feels like it's all on me. ⁓

⁓ There's some words for validating the other person that can shift the tone. Things like, can see why it would feel that way for you. That makes sense given your experience of it. I don't see it the same way, but I understand where you're coming from. Or I can hear how important it is to you.

Some other ways to shift things are...

Some other ways to shift things are, I don't wanna fight. I just wanna feel close to you. Or I think we're both trying to feel understood right now. Can we get back on the same team? ⁓

Can we take a breath? Can we take a breath and come back to this differently? Or can we slow this down? I don't want us to hurt each other. But a lot of times it's noticing what's coming in our body. A lot of times it's noticing what's coming up in our body and being able to have the present awareness that we are getting angry and tense and our nervous systems are on high alert and ready for the fight. And...

A lot of times the first step to changing that is becoming aware that our body is feeling that way and practicing the pause. So taking some deep breaths. If you do parts work, maybe asking that defensive or angry part to step back and coming ⁓ to the conversation. In IFS we call it the self. So that's when I'm calm, I feel connected.

I feel compassion and that's where we have to be to have a productive relationship in a really in vulnerable way.

⁓

And one thing to note is that if these phrases are used sarcastically, defensively, or as a tactic to control the other person, then it's going to backfire. Our tone has to be that we're choosing connection over control. And, you know, there are studies that show how much of communication is actually in the tone that we use and in even our volume.

that anything over 60 decibels gets the other person into an escalated state. And 60 decibels is about how I'm talking right now. And you might be thinking about the fights with your spouse and that they don't quite sound at this decibel level. So one tactic is to pull out a decibel app and we're only going to have this conversation when we're both keeping it under 60 because so much of

the fight may not even be in the words that we say, but how we're saying them, how loud we're saying them, and that's communicating to the other person that they need to be on the defense, they need to be pulling, and you're not going to get anywhere good in that.