Whitney H (00:01)
Welcome to the Human Work Podcast. We're Whitney Hancock and Jeri Peterson, therapists who spend a lot of time thinking about relationships, mental health, and the deeper work of therapy. There's a lot of psychology language circulating in our culture right now. Words like trauma, triggers, narcissism, boundaries. Social media is full of mental health advice, relationship tips, and quick explanations for complicated human experiences. Some of it's really helpful.

and some of it's oversimplified. And some of it can actually make it harder for people to understand themselves and the people they love.

Jeri Peterson (00:37)
So today we're talking about psychology.

in everyday culture. We'll explore therapy advice on social media, the way mental health is portrayed in movies and TV, and sometimes ⁓ even pop psychology phrases that are everywhere right now.

We'll talk about what therapy actually looks like from our own perspective as therapists, what we wish people knew before starting therapy, and a few books we genuinely use with clients. Our hope is that this conversation brings a little more clarity and compassion to how we think about mental health and relationships.

Whitney H (01:16)
All right, so we are therapists in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

And I'm Whitney and this is Jerry. Jerry, tell me a little bit about the work you do and just what makes you interested in this topic right now.

Jeri Peterson (01:32)
I work with people that come in with various issues. Of course, that's when we go to therapy and it's very courageous move. And people usually have gotten to a place in their relationships where they don't have any further skills or tools and feel stuck many times. So whether it's couples or individuals, ⁓ usually I work with 20 somethings, young adults.

and from there just any age group.

Whitney H (02:05)
Yeah, and I do pretty similar work with individuals and couples as well. I get to sit and listen to people's deepest and darkest secrets but also really, really vulnerable things all day, like sexual abuse or past trauma.

work with a lot of survivors of different types of trauma, do EMDR and couples work.

So therapy advice is all over social media right now. TikTok, Instagram Reels.

What's a piece of therapy advice that maybe you've seen on social media that you actually agree with?

Jeri Peterson (02:56)
I think the self-care advice looks really helpful. There are some really innovative ideas that circulate on what self-care means or what it looks like or how you can integrate it into your life.

Whitney H (03:11)
Yeah, anything that you do personally that comes to mind.

Jeri Peterson (03:15)
Well, not doom-scrolling and bed-rotting. That's probably very popular right now, doom-scrolling and bed-rotting. No, think taking time to unplug in my world, it looks like a coffee on the deck in my garden. It looks like gardening, something that puts me in connection with nature and family.

Whitney H (03:19)
⁓ God.

Yeah. Speaking of nature, we're in Colorado where it's beautiful. And I recently learned about the idea of nature bathing, I think from a study in Japan. But they had taken some executives because there's a problem there of overwork and they

Took them out to a cabin in the forest, I don't know, by Mount Fuji or something. And I think they just had them unplug and take a short walk every day.

So essentially just being in nature for even a small amount of time really decreases.

anxiety, depression, and then also helps you fight cancer, which is pretty awesome. So I'd say something I really like on social media, which I actually don't see too much is the like get outside every day. It's maybe the best thing you can do for your mental health. What's something though that makes you cringe a little bit as a therapist when you see it online?

Jeri Peterson (04:42)
It's difficult to hear people definitively use terms like narcissism or label someone they know as a narcissist or, psychosis or things that are very serious. And, you know, they do require some kind of diagnosis.

That's difficult to hear because it's a dual purpose then of trying to understand what is their definition behind it, what is their experience, and really where the work can happen is what is their in the situation, in the relationship.

Whitney H (05:00)
So.

Yeah, I think a very small percent, less than 1 % of the population have narcissistic personality disorder. So it definitely gets thrown out all the time about your boss or your parent or your spouse. So I definitely agree with that one.

Do you think social media is helping people understand mental health better? Or do you think it's confusing them?

Jeri Peterson (05:43)
think there are a lot of resources from other therapists and ⁓ self-help organizations that have good information and they also come with a sense of community. So connection is such a big part of healing. And I just wonder if a lot of it is maybe not healing focused, maybe it's more trying to trend.

but the most helpful seem to be when it's tracking toward a healing process.

Whitney H (06:11)
What do you think contributes to a healing process?

Jeri Peterson (06:16)
first, but you know, for you and I, it's that therapeutic alliance. When we can form that, it's that relationship that's the most healing factor. We can know all of the theories and stay up with the latest science, which of course is important. Yet within that relationship, we know that that's where the healing is.

Whitney H (06:41)
So you're saying not me on my phone laying in bed talking to chat GPT about my problems. Is that what you're saying?

Jeri Peterson (06:50)
Right, ChatYee, that's a great point. People are joking about in session, they're joking about asking their friend, know, they named their friend and some of them are asking therapy questions and forgetting that this is generally a library that's been programmed by a human.

Whitney H (07:03)
Mm-hmm.

Jeri Peterson (07:14)
And so really

Whitney H (07:14)
Yeah.

Jeri Peterson (07:15)
it would be a misunderstanding, I think, of Chat GPT. We are the ones who are instructing Chat GPT, for instance, with the parameters of our query.

Whitney H (07:26)
Yeah, yeah, I gonna say it has a lot of information, but I've noticed it generally tells me what I want to hear, which is if your therapist is always telling you what you want to hear, then maybe get another therapist. ⁓

Jeri Peterson (07:43)
True.

Whitney H (07:44)
So a lot of.

People are getting into therapy now. think, you know, we could say there's a lot of reasons for that, like the shrinking of the community or even less involvement in churches and other, other places that have historically held community and relationships. Do you think it's generally a good thing that people are, you know, it seems like everyone has a therapist these days. Do you feel like that's a good thing? Is that a bad thing? What, what are your thoughts?

Jeri Peterson (08:21)
Well, maybe we're biased, but I think everyone should have a therapist and someone that they can put things out on the table, push them around, make sense of them, maybe get a new piece. And we need someone who can give us.

⁓ that unconditional positive regard that we look for in therapy, where we are not going to be criticized or condemned in there. We're going to be listened to and heard and maybe learn our blind spots. So yes, I do think that that is a fortunate thing about the time we live in, where it wasn't in past generations even a thought. This is a relatively new science.

to have so many people turning an interest toward therapy. Hopefully that helps in all of us becoming more connected and in our society where there's so much technology and media.

If you look at a room of people watching television, everyone is not looking at each other. They're looking at this black screen, right? This box.

if you look at it that way, it's kind of strange. Or watching people on their phones, oblivious to the person next to them. So I think it's very important for us to remember, even in therapy, that connection is the ultimate.

Whitney H (09:40)
Mm-hmm.

Jeri Peterson (09:44)
It's really our secret weapon against so many symptoms that we have.

Whitney H (09:52)
Yeah, I love that there's a secret weapon So I think you know, sometimes people joke that they have to you buy their best friend or something like that, but Yeah, I think if your therapist talks to you like your best friend again, you should get a different therapist Because I've had a lot of good friends, but they just they don't ask the same types of questions they

Like you said, don't have the training to.

to maybe challenge you in the right way, in the right time that you can be challenged. And I'd say therapy isn't having a best friend. hope people have both good friends and a therapist. So a lot of people's expectations about therapy come from movies and TV, anything you've seen lately that

Jeri Peterson (10:40)
Agreed.

Whitney H (10:52)
is maybe a good example or a terrible example of what therapy is like.

Jeri Peterson (10:59)
Yes, if you look at Shrinking series, it's a group of mental health professionals that are really coloring outside the lines. It's hilarious if you understand that. then also the strength, I think, that of the points they make, somehow this big mess they've created by ignoring ethics.

Whitney H (11:03)
Mm-mm.

Mm-hmm.

Jeri Peterson (11:23)
even morals at times, it's like they're morally and ethically a mess, but they're really good at connection and they're really good at their theoretical balance. So they'll, they will throw things in there and their breakthrough moments come by that piece. And to me, you know, that's kind of thematic what we're talking about. If you get that

Whitney H (11:48)
Thanks.

Jeri Peterson (11:51)
It's not,

like you said, it's not best friends. And yet it's like we're the human interface. know, if chat GPT were a person that had training and at dynamic, we're always learning. We keep learning. And so if you keep your own self learning and refreshing, then I think you can be more relevant in that relationship.

Whitney H (12:17)
Yeah, so you think it's about the connection and.

in shrinking where the change happens.

Jeri Peterson (12:24)
do you'd have to tell me your perspective if you check out an episode or so

Whitney H (12:29)
Yeah, I mean, I do like Harrison Ford.

What comes to mind for me recently is that show, Nobody Wants This.

it's a decent show, but in the second season towards the end, the, sister starts dating her therapist. And I actually think it's a pretty good depiction of what can happen when you cross boundaries with your therapist. the sister is very defensive about it.

but what you come to find, I think is actually, probably what would happen in real life when, when this does happen and it, it does happen that some therapists grasp those boundaries and take advantage of that power dynamic. essentially the therapist knows all about, the girl's trauma and all about her life and she knows nothing about him.

He just becomes her caretaker, but then he also keeps this position of power because of the knowledge that he has, and then kind of uses that to manipulate her and keep her in the relationship. After a few episodes, she realizes that it's not going to work, and she breaks things off. But it's actually a pretty good depiction of what would happen if you...

ethical and just other lines with anyone in a position of power, not just a therapist, but like a doctor or a priest or a pastor, teacher.

Jeri Peterson (13:56)
That's a big subject right now. There's so much in the news right now from larger organizations, someone having crossed that boundary, a person of trust who becomes sexually involved with the client or patient or constituent. And what do you think helps a person recognize when that is happening? What do you think causes that?

Whitney H (14:21)
I mean, I always come back to the gut feeling that if something is off, especially in a relationship with someone who's in a position of power, then your gut's probably right. The hard thing is listening to that and listening to it over some of the maybe manipulation that's taken place or the things that that person is telling you.

But I think our minds and bodies and consciences just have an incredible capacity toward what is true and good and beautiful and I think our bodies and just alert us of things like that and The hard part is again slowing down and listening to that

Jeri Peterson (15:03)
That's an interesting point with different intelligences and our body has its own intelligence and to give honor to our body for the way it can remember correct form, the way it can remember that we can run distance or that we can give life. So I think...

There's a lot to learn there in different intelligences and to listen to the body as well as one of the better intelligences that we have.

Whitney H (15:38)
So some psychology terms are everywhere right now. There's triggered gaslighting, trauma response. You mentioned narcissist earlier. So these words are getting used constantly. But what do those actually mean clinically when you think about triggered and trauma response?

Jeri Peterson (15:57)
That's an easy one to throw around because it's all over social media. Triggered is the buzzword right now. Like when we say I'm in life, it might mean.

a lot of different things to a lot of different people where clinically becoming activated has a certain criteria. It's like if you and I are talking at a four or five on a scale of one to 10, and emotionally we're at a four or five, we're regulated and it starts to accelerate up to a seven, eight, we're activated. Something in our conversation or surroundings has activated us.

Whitney H (16:28)
Mm-hmm.

Jeri Peterson (16:34)
our vagus nerve, our amygdala has tripped and our vagus nerve is activated. Our body feels it. We might become short of breath. We might have a panic attack. We might lose our train of thought. So many different symptoms, but it's a physiologic response to either past trauma or current danger. And then that's where we can explore.

Whitney H (16:57)
What's a trauma response? How do we know we're having a trauma response?

Jeri Peterson (17:05)
I like the analogy of a reservoir in the trauma response. if what's happening in the moment is let's give it a scale of it's maybe a four, five. But our response is a seven or eight. It's an inordinate response. So as if somebody lifted the trapdoor off of a reservoir and it all floods in and the reservoir is

emotions and memories of past trauma, but something in present is too close to that. So it lifts the trap door and too much water floods in. So it's an inordinate response. I think if we can recognize that imbalance, you know, maybe what's happening in the moment merits a three response emotionally. It's not a big deal, but it's too similar to a past trauma.

Whitney H (17:53)
Okay. Okay.

Jeri Peterson (17:59)
then we have an inordinate response. To me, that's activation or what might be more accurately talked about as a trigger.

Whitney H (18:08)
Yeah, I think a trauma response might be when our bodies are telling us we're in danger. And like you said, the danger maybe isn't in the present. The danger is something that happened in the past, but it feels like it's happening now again. But maybe we're actually with a safe person or we're in a safe place, but our bodies are still feeling a threat.

And I'd say that's a trauma response. And in couples, that can be really hard when you're feeling like your partner is a threat, but they're actually maybe very present and engaged and not trying to harm you, but maybe something from your past is coming up in that interaction. An old wound, I'll call it a raw spot.

and we bring those into the relationships we have and when they get touched or we could say activated or triggered, then that might be a trauma response. ⁓ And then couples make me think of the term gaslighting a lot because I don't know about you, but I hear it in couple sessions all the time that they're wondering if their partner is gaslighting them or they're saying that they're being gaslighted.

Jeri Peterson (19:07)
Hmm.

Whitney H (19:22)
and sometimes it's, just a disagreement. Like they saw things a different way and the partners trying to communicate how they saw something or how they perceived an event. The other partner is saying, you're gaslighting me. That's not what happened. You, you did call me an idiot. in that situation, to use a very tame example.

But what do you do when one partner is saying you're gaslighting me and the other is kind of just communicating with their perception of the event was?

Jeri Peterson (19:59)
My question in that space is, does this person feel disempowered? So they're grasping at a clinical term and attempted a clinical framing so they can feel more powerful. Maybe they feel disempowered in the conversation or the exchange. And so I would probably go straight to, let's look at our conflict skills. What's our strategy? How do we view? And usually we have a tug of war modality. Who's right? Who's wrong? And so we'll use whatever tactics from family

of origin or from life experience to win, right? When there's other ways to go about it, that can be just breed more trust, more connection.

Whitney H (20:34)
Yeah.

And.

And then on the flip side, when do labels maybe help people understand themselves or another person? When can labels actually be good?

Jeri Peterson (20:59)
I think the biggest indicator of good therapy is if we do see a set of symptoms leading to a particular diagnosis.

just the process of identifying that, the honesty that it requires, the reality of looking at the self and talking about it with someone you trust. In therapy, we can say, yes, this seems to fit the framework of a certain diagnosis, which empowers us with a set of skills, therapy modalities, so we can understand how to deal with it and heal it. Somewhere in that process,

Whitney H (21:10)
So,

Jeri Peterson (21:39)
When it's done well, compassion shows up. And compassion is the precursor to healing. And that's the whole objective to me is we identify what is the problem as best we can in that moment. And then we can incite self-compassion as we demonstrate compassion. We hopefully can.

find that also together. And after compassion comes healing and that's where the reward is.

Whitney H (22:15)
And sometimes labels maybe can help us have compassion for ourselves or another person. And when I think of labels, I'm not even thinking of diagnoses, so sometimes those can be

really helpful to take a huge set of experiences and then just sum it up with one word that can be really helpful for people and even then even to have compassion for themselves of, I do struggle with OCD, for example, and just realizing that's what it is.

I also find labels or words really helpful in family systems when I'm describing interactions that take place or like the games we play in relationships or what's going on in the family system. I think labels or words can be really helpful then versus maybe saying like the narcissist in my family. I find that less helpful.

to use labels in that way or to describe a person as who they are. because then we're going to see everything they do from that label. And people really aren't that simple. Even true narcissists, know, that less than 1 % of the population that actually have that personality disorder. They're very complex and

They can have compassion also and empathy also at times. so I think just labels can oversimplify, but they can also help us with understanding and meaning So it can go both ways.

Jeri Peterson (23:47)
Yes,

I think that's language. when we share language and we can identify behaviors according to language and we share that vector, it becomes easier to navigate the very complex realms. also, language is how we draw on our brain, like an Etch A Sketch. It's words, it's language, our mind draws on our brain.

And that's a simplistic way of looking at the neuroscience of what we do, that what we think about, what we think, and what we feel, and what we choose over time, it wires and fires together and it creates.

Whitney H (24:14)
Okay.

Jeri Peterson (24:32)
a way of being in the world. creates habits, mindsets, and you know, that's where so much of our work is. And it takes language to do that. For instance, if we define ourselves a certain way, such as, I'm just not enough. And we carry that with us. We've been embedding code in our brain for a long time on that. It does affect our lives, the way that we live.

So language is very important to confront the language that's not true. The truth is I am enough, I've always been enough, in fact I'm more than enough. And then we embed that new code with intentionality. And then that repetition creates a new set of neural pathways, thinking, feeling, and choosing over time you have a new way of living.

Whitney H (25:23)
And you hit on maybe core beliefs there.

Like that feeling that I'm not enough as an example of one. And I was thinking earlier with labels or that putting words to those core beliefs. Again, I have this whole set of experiences and all these ways I describe these experiences, but sometimes being able to sum it up for someone like you in that core belief, like you are feeling like you.

or not enough, or you were feeling alone.

that can be way more powerful than any kind of psychological diagnosis.

Jeri Peterson (26:07)
the realization that you do have a core belief that's driving a lot of behaviors.

Whitney H (26:13)
Yeah, yeah. And putting words to what that is.

Jeri Peterson (26:16)
Yes.

Whitney H (26:20)
All right, well, there's a lot of ways we could go right now. But I'm going to take us to something we hear a lot or see a lot in social media, and that's the idea of boundaries. So boundaries can mean a lot of different things, but what is a healthy boundary actually meant to do? And maybe when do people take it too far?

Jeri Peterson (26:45)
Healthy boundaries in one way of thinking.

are all about core values. So once we identify how we stack that hierarchy of our top 10 core values, it really facilitates dropping healthy boundaries, which are for our protection. And it determines who's in our closest circles and then who's a little further out.

Whitney H (26:55)
Okay.

Jeri Peterson (27:09)
And when someone keeps crossing our boundaries, it's an indication they should be maybe in an acquaintance frame rather than an inner circle. And it's a good way of judging it at face value.

Whitney H (27:23)
Yeah, I haven't thought of it like that, like T-Mobile top five or something. And then we.

to go out from there. What are some of the core values that you had in mind when you mentioned that?

Jeri Peterson (27:37)
your core values might be, you might stack them up for my top core value is trust. My second is respect. My third is nature. My fourth is creativity. My fifth is et cetera. So no core value is bad. It's just according to how we give it priority.

and why it feels uncomfortable if someone steps over your core value. If your first core value is respect and ⁓ you find some people abrasive because their tone might be sarcastic or they might joke in a way that feels disrespectful, you can identify, that's why it feels disrespectful the way that they talk to me.

So you have the decision to make then is do they belong in my inner circle? Where people have that understanding, look, we can talk about anything with safety emotionally if we can use respect. That means we're gonna be emotionally intelligent

Whitney H (28:30)
Yeah. and

Jeri Peterson (28:45)
about our conversation and we can solve anything together. But respect is paramount in that space. Well, maybe that person is not one of those people. So they would go in a different category, a little circle further out.

Whitney H (28:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. That makes sense. And I like that it's not just two categories, like in and out. I think that may be how a lot of social media frames it. But we can actually have people at different levels of closeness. And that's not a bad thing. It sounds like a healthy thing. ⁓

What about when someone, yeah, let's say you value respect and then they're abrasive and sarcastic and the things that they say are disrespectful. Do you immediately move them out to the next circle or what do you try to do in the meantime?

Jeri Peterson (29:32)
That's a good lesson in assertiveness, We become as perverse as can with our assertiveness language and we can use words like, that felt disrespectful. Would you like to say that a different way or give them an opportunity to understand that's your boundary? That is what you require of people that are close to you.

is to share that mutual respect. And if this person can't do that, then they shouldn't be in that inner circle because it would just be harmful to you. But cutting people off, I mean, how rare is that that we would actually just cut somebody off? What would that look like? What scenario would that be a good idea? Where most relationships are able

Whitney H (30:08)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jeri Peterson (30:21)
to have some level of emotional intelligence exchange where we can arrive at understanding each other's values and principles, morality, spiritual beliefs, so we can have some kind of.

Whitney H (30:43)
It sounds like it's important to give people the opportunity to do something different. Maybe they weren't aware how they were affecting you or how they were coming across. And part of relationships is that repair and hopefully change or doing something differently in the relationship after that repair.

Jeri Peterson (31:04)
There's so much hope in that, what you just said, that when we do get it wrong or when we...

Whitney H (31:05)
And.

Jeri Peterson (31:12)
have big emotions and say things we don't mean, that we can have a pathway back to how do we repair? What is a good way for us to repair and learn more about each other?

Whitney H (31:26)
Yeah. And from that, the relationship actually gets stronger. And that's a, that's a big Gottman idea that conflict isn't bad. It's, actually strengthens relationships when there's a healthy repair and,

when we're able to see where the other person was coming from, show empathy, put ourselves in that other person's shoes. Even if the conflict wasn't maybe our best selves, or we got activated and like you said, said things we don't mean or said it in a way we wouldn't have wanted to say it. So that can actually still bring us closer even in our human error and brokenness and

and mess ups. doesn't have to be perfect to actually lead to something good.

Jeri Peterson (32:13)
I agree. that's back to the tug of war that's laying down the tug of war altogether. This isn't about pulling the other over the line and proving who's wrong. You just lay down the rope all together and lean in for that perspectives and the empathy piece. we don't often know how we affect others, how our behavior or language

affects someone else unless they tell us or we understand it from another perspective. But Gottman's are great with that conflict piece in their book Fight Right. It's for couples, but it can work in any realm. And the skills are so so wonderful. And that's the first one is let's lay down the talk of war. Let's lean in and let's understand fully what your perspective is. How did that make you feel? What else?

you can you tell me about what that experience was like for you so I can know you better? And that's the point.

Whitney H (33:09)
Yeah. And then we have to have some conflict or some mistakes made sometimes to get to that point of growth

Jeri Peterson (33:16)
Right, so if people say, we never fight, it kind of makes you wonder, you know, are we being avoidant? Is that how we deal with difficulty? Everyone has conflict. You can't be so close to someone without some sort of conflict, a difference of perspective, the closest people. So to get down to what is going on, you know, is it that...

Whitney H (33:36)
Mm-hmm.

Jeri Peterson (33:41)
We have a volatile style of conflict, so we just try to avoid it. So that tells you something. And then maybe there's another way to practice conflict. Because the idea is

Whitney H (33:47)
Mm-hmm.

Jeri Peterson (33:56)
to know and be known. And not destroy each other in that process. So if there's another way, what is that?

Whitney H (34:03)
Yeah.

Yeah, I've definitely heard from clients and it's often about past relationships or a marriage that didn't work. There was no conflict and things seemed to be fine. And then one day

We wake up and we don't know each other or one person, maybe has found that connection elsewhere. But no conflict, yeah, is not a good thing. We want some healthy conflict because that means we're actually connecting to humans that are different and turning towards each other in that.

in those differences rather than staying separate on our two different lanes.

All right, for someone who maybe has never been to therapy before, the process might feel mysterious or they might feel a little nervous going into it. Again, you're coming into this small room with someone you've never met before. You don't know exactly what they're going to ask you and maybe you don't know what you're going to end up sharing. But what do you maybe wish clients understood about the process or knew before going into it?

Jeri Peterson (35:11)
if the client shows up.

being as honest as they can be and ready to do the work of looking squarely and honestly as possible at what's happening in their world and themselves in relationship to that. If they're ready to do that hard work, they're going to make strides very quickly and healing is possible in most cases.

See, I'm just stumbling here.

Whitney H (35:44)
Essentially, if they're ready to do the work, then that's all you need, ⁓

Jeri Peterson (35:49)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Whitney H (35:53)
Yeah, so it sounds like it really just takes someone's willingness and openness, maybe rather than being forced or their partner kind of forcing them to go. And sometimes that can work if there's some openness with it,

Jeri Peterson (36:07)
yes, and in conflict some realizing some problems are fixable and some of our perpetual and we treat them differently. And sometimes that in itself is a relief. good, so I didn't fail if I didn't solve every problem.

Whitney H (36:22)
Yeah, I think a lot of people are nervous or anxious about sharing personal things in this kind of setting. But I pretty much find that it seems like a relief for people and a good therapist is going to go at your pace and not push you to be more open than you want to be even to experience

too much emotion or too much pain, you know, all at once. A good therapist is going to be attuned to your experience and kind of giving you the right amount of push or challenge, but not making it intolerable or unbearable or really uncomfortable. And so I think maybe what surprises people is that it's

it's not as bad as they maybe think it's gonna be. And I think that's throughout therapy that kind of facing some of the hardest things in your life or even the worst parts of yourself really isn't as bad as we think it's gonna be and actually brings a lot of relief and...

you know, I think of Brene Brown and vulnerability as the antidote to shame. And that the vulnerability that therapy allows is not just only healing, but I think it actually feels really, really good. And that's what I'd want clients to know going into it.

Jeri Peterson (37:47)
Yes, it's a place to be more fully seen and known in a safe environment where you're receiving unconditional positive regard. How often do we get that in life? Hopefully we all do, but in therapy, that's a space where we can have that. It's very healing.

Whitney H (38:08)
we'll end with a book you recommend to clients a lot. You already mentioned Fight Right, so maybe we'll just go with that one.

Jeri Peterson (38:15)
it's okay.

Whitney H (38:16)
What do you like about Fight Right?

Jeri Peterson (38:19)
We should all fight and more often.

Whitney H (38:21)
Healthy conflict is good conflict, or is good.

Jeri Peterson (38:22)
Right?

Fight Right by the Gottmans. It's amazing research and they are my heroes for relationship dynamics and the elements in the book are applicable to every relationship, professional, parental, spousal.

friendships, every connection can use the information that's inside.

Whitney H (38:49)
I love the Gottmans. For those who don't know who they are, they essentially based all of their books off of really well-done research in a lab where they'd have couples come stay and they would just record their interactions and observe their body language, the words they used. And then from that drew a lot of inferences over

decades of work about what leads to healthy relationships, what actually makes relationships last, and then what kinds of things couples do that lead to divorce. they got to where they can predict pretty well just based on those observations, coding words and coding interactions. They could...

basically predict if couples were gonna stay together or not. in the social sciences, we don't always have a huge scientific kind of numerical foundation, which is fine. You can't always put a number to things. But what's interesting is that they do both really well.

Jeri Peterson (39:44)
Yeah, so much of therapy work seems abstract. They're abstract concepts and it's things we can't see, ways of thinking and feeling. We can see behaviors. And I agree with you that that is why I love them so much. You can quantify it with research. And then also Dr. Carolyn Leaf in her neuroscience approach to therapy has given us a lot of...

big data distilled down into how we can use it in therapy. And it's also quantifiable. It's scientific, even using fMRI scans so you can see brain changes when various behaviors are changing.

Whitney H (40:24)
Thanks for spending time with us today. Our hope is that these conversations bring a little more depth and clarity to the ways we think about mental health and relationships. Therapy isn't about quick fixes or perfect insight. It's about learning to understand ourselves and each other with a little bit more honesty and compassion. And sometimes those small shifts can change a lot.

Jeri Peterson (40:47)
congratulations on the new space. I just think that's amazing. Along with the walk and talk at Garden of the Gods. What a great idea.

Whitney H (40:50)
Thanks.

Yeah, I know. I hope people want to do it. But thank you. It's been busy, yeah, exciting.

Jeri Peterson (41:03)
Yeah, that's amazing.

Whitney H (41:05)
All right, good to see you. I'll talk to you soon.

Jeri Peterson (41:07)
Okay, bye.