Whitney H (00:03)
Today we're talking about anxiety and not just what it is, but how it shows up in our bodies and relationships in ways people don't always realize. So today we have Jerry and Lizzie. You guys met Jerry last week, but Lizzie, tell us a little bit about who you are.

Lizzy G (00:20)
Yeah, I am a LPCC counselor candidate with Dynamic Counseling. I just hopped on a few months ago. I see a variety of clients. see teens, young adults, adults, love working with anxiety, doing parts work, cognitive behavioral.

DBT, yeah, just a whole box of mixed things. So it's been really awesome being with DYNAMIC and yeah.

Whitney H (00:47)
Yeah, we're glad to have you. All right, so when people say, have anxiety, what do you guys think that they're actually describing?

Jeri Peterson (01:03)
They might be having symptoms that feel uncomfortable in their body. know, their heart might raise, you know, it can be even dizziness or shortness of breath. It just depends on what kind of anxiety they're experiencing. So one question to follow up would be, where you feel that in your body, what does that act like?

Whitney H (01:27)
Yeah, sometimes we ask that question and it surprises clients or kind of catches them off guard. Realizing that we experience anxiety in our body, but we don't actually pay attention to that very often. So what about maybe someone who has never thought about that question? How do you get them to go there?

Lizzy G (02:00)
Sometimes I like doing a body scan. Like, is there anywhere that feels tight? Is there anywhere that feels really tense? Just like pause for a second and look all the way down the body. And like we can take a few minutes to look all the way down.

Usually something comes up, but it really depends on the client too. I think a lot of mine are describing that ruminating thought cycle and then like they haven't matched it like Jerry said they haven't matched it to a body sensation even though there probably is one.

Whitney H (02:33)
Yeah, with the body scan, sometimes I bring up the scanner at an airport, maybe that was a long time ago, but at an NBA game now, when they use a metal scanner to see what's on you, I kind of imagine that that's just going from head to toe, and let's pay attention to all those different parts, like you hold it in your jaw. A lot of people say shoulders, back.

So sounds like we understand anxiety as more than just thoughts, but as something a lot bigger. But it also can show up in a lot of different ways. Like there's panic disorder, there's social anxiety, there's agoraphobia, anxiety when you're in a grocery store and you're looking for that exit as soon as possible.

Tell us maybe about the different types of anxiety.

Jeri Peterson (03:32)
Generalized anxiety disorder needs to fit a certain criteria. And it looks like chronic or excessive worry about multiple areas, maybe work, maybe health, relationships. It kind of feels like you're always on anxiety. And that needs to be over about a period of six months. So it needs to be interfering with your life in some way.

Whitney H (04:00)
Yeah, versus, you just described general anxiety, Yeah, ⁓ versus social anxiety where maybe it only shows up in social situations or certain types of groups.

Jeri Peterson (04:03)
You

Whitney H (04:17)
You guys wanna keep throwing out different types of anxiety.

Lizzy G (04:20)
I think it's been interesting with some of my clients where it's such a comorbid symptom.

like, I have anxiety, but then it turns out that we're looking at PTSD or, I have anxiety, but it's partnered with ADHD and that's where more of the behaviors are. Like anxiety can be so tricky because someone comes in saying they have anxiety, but it's not always just anxiety. Like sometimes it sprouts other things and sometimes it's sprouted from other things. So I feel like anxiety can still often be a puzzle piece and not just like its own

thing.

Whitney H (04:57)
Yeah, maybe shifting from seeing anxiety as the primary symptom or the primary problem, but anxiety is more of a signal to something else, which could be a diagnosis or it could be something like grief, pain.

But oftentimes anxiety is what presents, but it's...

maybe not what.

kind of this, I don't know to say.

Lizzy G (05:30)
It's not always like what's under the surface, right? Like sometimes anxiety is the easier thing to feel. Especially when looking at something like some version of PTSD or complex PTSD, right? Like seeing it as primarily anxiety feels easier, I think sometimes.

Jeri Peterson (05:49)
That's part of the process too, is gearing the questions to take us to what it feels like in the body, what thoughts might be attached. Is it worry about, is it forward looking? Is it future oriented? Is it past oriented? And that's key to whether it might be anxiety or trauma.

Whitney H (06:09)
Okay.

So earlier we were talking about anxiety as being a lot more than just thoughts, but engaging or actually something that includes the whole body. So could someone describe what's happening in the nervous system whenever someone feels anxious?

Jeri Peterson (06:48)
Do we want to talk about polyvagal theory?

Whitney H (06:53)
to.

Jeri Peterson (06:54)
Okay, so the vagus

nerve is involved and when we're feeling anxious, we might feel a break or a breaking sensation, we need to stop and check our safety. And the vagus nerve activates that response to signal we're in danger. So it's a protective mechanism.

And when it's accompanied by thinking, what I refer to as awfulizing, to get the conversation going in that direction, what are we saying? What is the dialogue we're saying that's attached to the feelings of worry? Does it feel inordinate to the situation? Does it feel overly persistent?

Whitney H (07:39)
is something you mentioned there is danger. Which we think about danger, we might often think about getting in a car wreck or a scary person following us. So we think a lot about danger with physical danger. But a lot of our anxiety that we present with is often emotional danger and as

humans that are created to connect and attach to others for safety. A lot of the anxiety we experience is actually in relationship. Whenever those attachments or whenever our relationships can feel threatening, we need others to survive. We need love, acceptance.

to survive, whenever we feel a potential loss of that or a threat to that, then that can actually feel the same as when I step out into the street and a car's about to cross and I didn't see it. The same thing, our body can have the same experiences in relationship. And so...

gonna pause there.

Lizzy G (08:51)
Sometimes I find myself using, this is the metaphor I find myself using the most with clients is like, if you had to trek out a path because you were lost hiking, right? And you had to trek out a path to get back. And then you use that path again because then that's just where your brain has led you. Then it becomes this well-worn path.

And instead of it being a path that you had to make because you were lost, it's just the route that you always take now instead of taking the main path, right? And like the idea that the path was a good tool for when we were lost or in danger, but now it's well worn and because we're so used to it, we're not really exploring other options or our body has told us that...

Whitney H (09:17)
So, thank you.

Lizzy G (09:36)
this is just what we do, right? Like, if there's danger, we're feeling lost in any level at all related to why we originally trekked the path. This is what we do. And so then sometimes it's coming up when you're not really lost or there's not really danger and

The metaphor that we continue using is like, what is checking the new path? What does that look like in your body? What would your body need to know for a new path to be even an option?

Whitney H (10:06)
Now could you give us an example of a path that maybe our bodies and brains go down that is associated with anxiety due to an emotional threat or a physical threat?

Lizzy G (10:22)
I catastrophizing tends to be one I've seen a lot recently of like, we get into this all or nothing mindset, like well, for example, like when I was little, not me, but the general, when I was little, I had to see maybe a neglectful parent as all good or all bad. And then I started seeing them as all bad. And so now, because...

someone in my life is slightly neglecting me. I see them as all bad and I worry that they are all bad to me. And also, I have to see that it was my early experience, right? Like, it makes sense that I had to tread that path as a child who didn't understand neglect. And now I have to go back and see how that affected me versus how maybe it should have been.

Whitney H (11:10)
Yeah, so maybe we get in a situation with that partner and our body starts

experiencing anxiety, like the tightening of the chest or heart racing, tension that maybe we don't even recognize. And so our body is signaling, this is a threat. They are bad. They are never gonna be here for you. Need to protect yourself in some way. And you know, that can go a lot of different ways. Maybe you need to withdraw so that they can't hurt you.

don't show them anything or.

and so it sounds like what you're saying is going down a different path or rewiring of the brain and the body even is,

recognizing that partner's not all bad. They're actually different and kind of updating that path.

Lizzy G (12:10)
Yeah, I think I love the word exploring for it because it's like you don't have to choose it yet, right? Like we don't have to choose to believe that your partner can be both good and both bad if that feels really scary. But like what comes up in your body as you explore the new path? Like what are the hangups? Well, if I see them as between then I'm risking a lot more. Yeah, and like what has risking a lot more done for you negatively in the past? Like

Whitney H (12:10)
You might have.

Lizzy G (12:38)
And then I think this is a really good one for past anxiety, but I think what Jerry said earlier too is like, what about for future anxiety? Like, what do we do there? And that's a different, a different issue.

Whitney H (12:56)
So how much of someone's anxiety response is shaped by early relationships or attachment experiences?

Jeri Peterson (13:10)
We can adapt attachment styles early on in our family origin according to where we are in the family unit and the behaviors that are surrounding us. can establish rules of behavior and ways of thinking and feeling and choosing from a child.

And I think that's key too, to recognize that if we have something that is maybe causing an inordinate response today in a relationship as an adult, we might explore family of origin to find out what kind of rulemaking we did. Are we dealing with some childlike beliefs about relationships or about the self?

and realizing that we can change those today. We can adapt and find a different way of thinking, establish a new rule. For instance, I can't rely on anybody, it's up to me. So let's say that a child felt neglected or their needs weren't met and they established that rule as a very tiny human.

than when they're an adult that might still hang on as a core belief and so they might have developed an anxious or avoidant attachment style. So they're always checking, they need reassurance or they avoid. Are they procrastinate?

And so there's various signals that we give when something like that is present. And then it's helpful to go back and look at that. What do we believe about ourselves? How does it show up in attachment? Is this core belief truth still today? Or was it a childlike adaptation where we needed to survive well? And then that can be redrawn.

And work in therapy is redrawing. So as we reframe and as we pull apart the past from the present, we are essentially drawing new neural pathways in the moment, new ways of thinking and feeling and choosing. And the moment we look at those old thoughts, they become pliable. They become ready for neuroplasticity to take place and develop some new idea, some new core belief.

Whitney H (15:27)
I can take my video out of that one because things are busting through the airplane mode and sorry, I just turned on notifications. That was great. Sorry, I'm failing.

Lizzy G (15:41)
No, you're good.

Whitney H (15:43)
Okay, I thought on airplane mode nothing would come through but emails are coming through. Yeah.

Lizzy G (15:49)
Holy

Whitney H (15:53)
And then my phone. Okay. But yeah, can whenever, if someone does something like that, that I can like make it where my video just doesn't show while she's talking. Okay.

Jeri Peterson (16:03)
That's neat. So you can edit the screen also.

Whitney H (16:07)
Yeah, it's like you're all three separate streams that I can edit. Who shows up when? Who shows up when? Okay, let me get this. Yeah, it is. And it's really easy. They, like, do you wanna take all the ums out? Yes.

Lizzy G (16:10)
Thank you.

That's so cool.

they just do it. That's awesome. Wow. They have come so far.

Whitney H (16:25)
Yeah, it just automatically does it. ⁓

Jeri Peterson (16:27)
Wow! ⁓

Whitney H (16:30)
I know.

Sorry, my video. Okay, there we go. All right.

Another idea in attachment is co-regulation. So not just what are the messages we got from attachment figures or are they gonna be there or are they not whenever I fall down and need help. But if they're there, are they gonna be there, a calm presence that helps me regulate my own emotions. Sometimes with clients I...

have them think about like a mama bear and a baby cub. And, you the baby cub comes up to lie down next to mama bear, feels her warmth, also feels her calmness and her terror. When know, when that huge grizzly is coming, our nervous systems communicate things to each other and we pick up on them. And the same thing for

parent and child for husband and wife, even friend and friend, your nervous system feels what they're feeling. And so if you come to them in distress, and they're also in distress and they can't handle what you're bringing them, you feel that and our anxiety, our symptoms of anxiety escalate.

But instead, if I come to that parent or that partner or friend and they're a calm presence, and even if I have a problem with them, they can hear what I have to say and their calm nervous system actually communicates to mine that this is a safe place to be and you're okay and you're gonna be okay. Then that just lets...

you relax. And that's the idea of co-regulation is that we're not just relying on ourselves, we're also relying on primarily attachment figures like parents and then spouses as you get older, but other people as well. But you're relying on other people for some sort of regulation for your anxiety, for your nervous system.

And sometimes the question comes up is, you know, how much is too much? How much should we depend on others for that co-regulation versus learning to regulate our own emotions?

Lizzy G (18:53)
I feel like such a systems therapist, because my first thought when you said that was like, well, what kind of families did they come from, right? Like, what was regular and how they were growing up seeing co-regulation? Like, were mom and dad really attached to each other and like really reliant on each other? Or was it like, wow, mom's so independent and like dad does his own thing. Like that's so respectable. Again, super systems mindset, but like.

And also thinking in couples, right? Like as you move through life and you get older with your spouse, like you're establishing that new norm, right? And I think it's so subjective and dependent on like what you came from because someone who, like I was just, I was just seeing a couple like yesterday and we were talking about this, like the guy didn't see any affection from his parents. And so his female partner is like,

where's our physical affection? Like what's happening? He's like, I've never seen it. Like I'm so happy to try, but like, and I think just like normalizing that, you know, we come from such different places when we do meet someone that we think we could trust to co-regulate with for potentially the rest of our life. Like.

that level of what it should be or like what feels okay has to it has to be like trial and error and I'm sure that to have the most healthy relationship you have to go through phases where at least one party is kind of uncomfortable just to test it out.

Whitney H (20:26)
Yeah, I've noticed that lately too, a theme of this, my partner is asking for more than I can give, or it seems like what they're asking me for, I don't really need. And so I'm just doing it for them, which feels inauthentic. How would you guys see that through maybe a co-regulation or attachment lens?

Jeri Peterson (20:59)
I think it's important when we're pulling apart what they mean when they say they feel anxious or they have anxiety and learn to understand what that feels like for them, what their experience is, where it comes from. I think the next natural step for me is to try to find out where they feel disempowered and how to get that back because we want to feel

that in any situation in life, we have a reasonable course of action where we can self-regulate and understand and operate through a lot of different situations. We want to feel empowered that we can show up in life unapologetically authentic with respect to all of the love and relationships and connections that we have.

and also in adverse situations. So to me, it's a very much, it comes back to agency and your internal locus of control, how you see yourself and how, what is the path that you can imagine toward empowerment. And so from a therapeutic standpoint, we're giving them that safe attachment where they can exercise and grow into it and replicate that wherever they want to with another person who's

able to do that. you know, it's like that self-empowerment piece, I think is very important in dealing with anything and especially anxiety, because often it feels like you're out of control at points. So you can regain that, okay, what am I saying to myself? What am I actually reaching for? Why does this feel inordinate to the situation? And then you can try something different, act opposite.

take it in small amounts, do small things often. There's a hundred thousand different windows to look through and that's what our job is, is to afford them whatever's appropriate to them so they can become empowered.

Whitney H (22:59)
Yeah, we don't maybe have those healthy ways of coping with anxiety in mind. What do you see in, you know, in self and others? What do we instinctively do whenever we're feeling that anxiety in our body and we want relief? What are some things we tend to do when we're overwhelmed?

Lizzy G (23:31)
I kind of think it is back to that all or nothing mindset sometimes, right? Where like, we're looking at what kind of impulses you had to soothe and how they expand when just things are so wrong and things are so tense and we can't identify it. And so it's like, all or nothing also describes...

binge eating, drinking, right? Excess shopping even, like anything that like soothes you and then it's maybe an excess or it's like, I'm not gonna do like any of this at all and that's gonna be regulating because I'm just not gonna touch it. I feel like I see that a lot.

as a coping mechanism and then drawing it back towards the middle feels really challenging because the anxious narrative is like, but this is what we do, like this is what's normal and so it's okay, like we just have to do it so that you stop feeling anxious. And it's like another form of that well-worn path where it's maybe not the best option.

Whitney H (24:30)
And in IFS, we call those firefighters, these parts of us that are working really hard. They have their hose and they're trying to put out the anxiety so that we can feel better as quickly as possible. And those firefighters are often, and you mentioned a few of the kind more extreme ones like binge eating, drinking. And there's also...

I mean, just numbing out, watching TV, going for a run, know, ⁓ maybe a healthy firefighter.

But any firefighters or maybe anything we do to quickly put out the anxiety and to help our bodies to feel calm again. And a lot of times those parts often wreak more havoc than they bring relief in the long term. And avoidance fits into this too. Sometimes when something gives us anxiety, our natural tendency is to

avoid and just if that thing is scary then don't don't go to that thing anymore what do you guys think about avoidance as a way of coping with anxiety?

Lizzy G (25:56)
I kind of tend to think like too much of anything is bad, right? Like there are certain things we can and should avoid based on like what caused our anxiety in the first place. And also if we start avoiding so much that we can't gain insight or we can't see things differently or give ourselves a chance to, then as a coping mechanism, I think it becomes a hindrance, right?

to how much we can see of ourselves and why our anxiety is there.

Whitney H (26:28)
Yeah, we primarily avoid to reduce anxiety. And we're reinforcing to our brains and to our bodies that this isn't a safe thing and it needs to be avoided, which can be really good when it's something dangerous. You know, use the street again. It's good to feel anxiety about things that are dangerous. But a lot of things that we experience anxiety about...

are actually dangerous, but they feel threatening. And of course there's cases where, you know, people and places are harmful again, and we should feel anxiety. But I'd say a pretty big portion of our anxiety comes from a perceived threat. And when we avoid that perceived threat, again, we're reinforcing that this isn't safe and

that actually increases our anxiety about it. Versus what do you think happens when we maybe can start to step into some of those places or relationships, scenarios, like a new job, going into a new classroom. Maybe what happens when we start entering into those rather than avoiding them.

Jeri Peterson (27:54)
That's a good analogy, the classroom. in social anxiety treatment, sometimes we make a bit of a game of it. We try to understand that your mind is trying to predict the future here. So what do you think might happen?

If you walk in and imagine yourself walking in and taking your seat and saying hello to your fellow students around you, what do think might happen? And let them take the story and explain what their their primary fears are or how they're trying to predict the future, which is the areas where we can empower. OK, so what is one small thing that you can do to affect the outcome?

to make the future a little more predictable, at least on your part. What's in your control and what is not.

Lizzy G (28:54)
I actually have a worksheet literally right here based on what you just said, Jerry.

I can pull it up too and you can cut it out if it doesn't fit. it's like, we fill out the middle column first that says things I wish I could control, right? And so in the classroom environment, maybe it's like what everyone thinks of me with social anxiety, or even if it's different anxiety, like I wish I could control how I'm breathing, because I'm breathing really heavy. And then we list out the things you wish you could control. And then the second one is ⁓

Whitney H (29:06)
So.

Jeri Peterson (29:12)
.

Whitney H (29:18)
.

Lizzy G (29:24)
things I can't and

you're pulling from the list you already made and just like arrowing it in and saying like, yeah, like I can't fully control what other people think of me and like we're describing emotions around that, like that feels disappointing or that feels disempowering,

But then the third column on the other side is things I can control, right? And then we're pulling A, the things we didn't touch for what I can't control, but B, like, well, we can't control what people think of you, but what can we control about how you present yourself authentically? Or, sometimes it feels like we can't control our breathing, but what could we increase in your mindfulness practices to actually be able to do that a little bit more? like, I actually find that when I have like

five copies on my desk right now. I actually find that one really empowering because then it's on paper to see, there is more that I can control around these situations. learning the radical acceptance to be OK with the things that belong on the column that we just can't control ⁓ is easier when we see what can be controlled.

Jeri Peterson (30:27)
Mm-hmm.

That's a great way to make it tangible to taking the abstract concepts and putting them on paper and moving them around. begins to demonstrate that you do have some personal agency in anxiety.

Whitney H (30:36)
Yeah.

Lizzy G (30:49)
Absolutely.

Whitney H (30:53)
Yeah, so I'm hearing that anxiety is a mixture of these thoughts that we can write down and observe. Plus our nervous system experience and our relational experiences. So again, a lot plays into those symptoms of your heart beating really fast or that uncomfortable tightness in your chest. But how do we actually help someone grow through

anxiety. Maybe what does co-regulation look like when it is done well?

Jeri Peterson (31:24)
Sometimes when we're sitting with a client, we might feel something too. And just our presence and their presence together, you can often feel what someone might be feeling and where they might be feeling it in their body because your body's reflecting it. And you can ask that question, know, are you feeling this in your solar plexus right now?

And then that can be a point of attunement where you can help them move to regulation and say, okay, let's make a fist, let's put it in our chest, take a sharp breath in. As you release it, release your hand. That chest press breath, how does that feel? And many times if they're carrying that...

anxiety in their chest or their solar plexus that will give them a physical response and you've essentially co-regulated with them by tuning to them and then by giving them a tool where they can identify and release your largest portion of your vagus nervous right here so that will signal a release you're safe and that's a good skill that can be done anywhere in the classroom.

You can step out, take a pause.

Whitney H (32:40)
Yeah, so I'm hearing that other person is not just present with them, but they're attuned to what the anxious person is feeling and noticing it along with them and then helping them to regulate it. So it's actually a little bit more than a calm presence. It's a calm presence plus attunement to the other.

And you might think that again, if we're always going to need someone else to help us with our anxiety, what do we do when we don't have that person?

So how might you help someone gradually rely less on others and more on themselves, maybe in that time, like they're walking into the classroom or they're going to that job interview that their partner can't go with them to or their parent can't go to?

Lizzy G (33:37)
I actually often, as I'm thinking about it, I find myself trying to bring it back to what worked for them when the anxiety was established early on. What do you do as a kid that made you feel good? Maybe if parent was neglectful or things weren't always perfect, or even if it just a bad relationship with a sibling, what made you feel better? Well, I'd draw in my room. That was nice. Or I'd get lost in a fantasy book.

I would do like a murder mystery puzzle.

something so small that sometimes when it's nostalgic and it's like if it worked then like what's to say that carving out a written time for it to know that when you're dysregulated you deserve to give yourself that time to ⁓ do the crossword puzzle or draw or listen to music you listen to when it initially came on for you even if it's like 20 years ago

can like really therapeutic because it also makes them feel empowered that like, well, I have had things that worked before that were mine. I just, I think I lost track of them, right? And I feel like it can get so creative per client.

Whitney H (34:59)
Sometimes I think about it to the image of the kid on the playground and maybe they're four years old and they're out there playing, but every so often they look back at their mom just to check that she's still there. And then, you know, maybe every 15 minutes or so, they run over and check and, you know, tell their mom something or touch them or get a little side hug or something.

that that's a good metaphor for maybe what life should be like that we go out into the world, we go in the classroom, we maybe experience some difficult things on the playground, and then we maybe go back to that safe person and that attachment figure to get some reassurance and to find that safe harbor where there's not a storm.

for that reassurance again that we're okay and that they're still here. And then we go back out into the world and that support that we know and when we know that it's there and we can turn and look and we see mom on the bench, that should increase our capacity to go out onto the playground, into the world, into the classroom rather than replace it. I don't then learn I have to stay on the bench because that's where.

That's where mom is and that's the only place I'm safe. I actually learn, ⁓ I can go out into the world and be okay because I know I'm safe, because I know that they are here and that I have someone to go to when that bully comes into the sandbox and steals my truck. Or when the really difficult boss is blaming me for...

all the problems in the meeting in front of everyone. Just that I have that support and I think maybe that's what a little more what co-regulation should look like. And I think Lizzie, you pointed out good things to go do when that person's not available and we can't always, know, mom's not on the bench anymore. Sometimes we do have to manage it on our own and we've got to have those skills as well.

Lizzy G (37:07)
and I really try to make it.

Whitney H (37:07)
⁓

Lizzy G (37:08)
fun for clients, right? Of like, let's find something that works. And like, if it doesn't, it's okay. Like that just means we have more data, right? Because there are going to be times where mom's not on the bench and we need to know that you are proud of the solution you came up with and that you can, ⁓ you can go out and tell people, you know, like it might seem silly, but it's like, well, yeah, I, you know what? I'm just going to chunk out an hour to play guitar later. And that's really going to help me. Like, no, that's amazing. That's amazing that it works for you. Right?

compared to where we started, like always focusing on where we are now.

Whitney H (37:45)
So we've mentioned the classroom, the playground, which reminds me of an interesting question we got from a listener. They wrote in that

this person works at a school and they said, we're seeing more parents say their kids can't go to school because of anxiety. But then they still expect them to get good grades despite not showing up. Is this realistic and how should this be handled?

Jeri Peterson (38:38)
In family therapy, if there is a child in the family who is very anxious about going to school and becomes dysregulated so that it's, you know, at times it's just not going to work to, you can't just drop them off dysregulated and leave them. So then we look at various assessments to find out

You know what might help the situation in the short term while we're installing maybe some skills and finding out more about family dynamic. How the child can become self empowered and learn to challenge themselves. Empower themselves and how the family can support. And what how often and under what circumstances is it OK to gather the homework and have it done at home or?

go to school remotely. One good thing that came from COVID, right, is sometimes you have that option. And sometimes medication is a good interim.

and maybe a temporary as they're gaining skills interventions. it depends on the situation. If it's extreme like that, I would think that that's a possible path forward.

Lizzy G (39:57)
I had a case like this and

We tried so many things and then I found something that really worked was bringing mom in and saying, let's just go over each other's intentions real fast. What's mom's intention in trying to get you to school? Well, I want her to succeed, right? I want her to have as beautiful a life as possible. And for daughter to hear that feels so much more reassuring than, I think mom needs me to go because that's just the pressure. I just have to perform versus

Whitney H (40:12)
you

Lizzy G (40:30)
like I just want you to be successful, like I love you, you I want it

to work for you and then for daughter to say her intentions and she said like...

I just don't want to feel alone. Like some of those interactions with teachers make me feel so alone and ⁓ I feel less alone at home, you know? So I try to avoid that. that I think voicing the intentions like over and over really allowed us to come up with a plan. Like, okay, like let's throw some positive reinforcement there. Like, mom, what happens if she can make it to school like three days this week? Like, can we throw in something that would feel really meaningful to both of you?

celebrate and there's not a negative reinforcement if it doesn't happen but we do come in and talk about it. Again, I don't think that would work for everyone but I think hearing each other's intentions for the child can be really helpful because I think in terms of school anxiety that can be a really uncertain area, right? What's the teacher's intentions in scolding me? Like maybe they're good but we don't get to hear that. So.

Jeri Peterson (41:33)
makes good sense of moving from expectations which feels like pressure, performance, and then moving to intentions. It's a much softer window to look into.

Lizzy G (41:44)
Yeah.

Whitney H (41:53)
So it's definitely here. It's more of a case by case basis that maybe there are scenarios where that person really does need the safety of home. But some of that, and when we can go back to that bench analogy, maybe they really need to be sitting on the bench with mom and just getting a back rub for a little bit. But I think that the goal...

that they're not staying there forever, that this is like you said earlier to gain some resources, to maybe have some interventions, get some maybe medication at times. But the goal is that they go back out into the world and back on the playground. And then, so sometimes staying home can be about regulation when it's done in a healthy way.

And other times it can be more about avoidance and avoidance would be, you know, you're on the bench with mom and she's saying, man, that bully is really scary. Like this is, you don't need to go out there. You're safe here. essentially it's communicating to the child, you can't handle what's out there. You don't have what it takes to be in the same playground with that bully.

And so you're not just communicating something about the world out there being dangerous. You're also communicating something about the child, something about them that they aren't capable. And I think what parents don't realize sometimes when staying home is for avoidance rather than regulation is that they're communicating to the child, again, the world is dangerous.

and you're not capable of handling it. And that's a message that's crippling and one of those paths that their brains are gonna kind of go down and other situations that might feel emotionally threatening. And we're not saying the threat is not there. The bully is very real and it's scary. But the avoidance doesn't help them face that or move through it in a healthy way.

it teaches them to shut down.

Lizzy G (43:54)
I have to bop for my client, but this was so cool. Thank you so much for having me. I'll see you guys soon.

Whitney H (43:58)
Yeah, glad you could.

Jeri Peterson (43:59)
Good see you, Lizzie.

Bye.

That was so fun.

Whitney H (44:08)
Yeah. We can go a little longer and then wrap up. Are you good for just a little bit longer? Okay, I didn't look at your schedule. Any thoughts there?

Jeri Peterson (44:13)
I am.

I really like the analogy of going to visit mom on the bench or the little bear going to mom a bear to co-regulate and we need those touchstones even as adults. We have safe people and in our lives and we also have have the ability to develop an internal safe space also and it's good to be able to shoot for being able to have

the ability to self-soothe and to feel safe within ourselves and keep our equilibrium on the inside as well as have good connections, good solid connections with people on the outsides.

Whitney H (45:06)
What do you think one shift is that helps someone build more of that internal stability that you're referencing there?

Jeri Peterson (45:15)
I like to nurture metacognition, the ability to step back as the grounded self and observe what are we thinking and feeling and what are behaviors that come out of that and then question, you know, is every emotion

What place shall it have? We're the managers of the whole thing. So to be able to be grounded and observe our thinking and feeling and choosing is a very powerful perspective. So I try to introduce that. And many times it's a piece of work in itself to begin to tune in and say, what am I saying to myself? Actually name the feelings and are there messages attached to those? And which of those?

are from my history, which of them are current, which of them are future oriented, and do you be able to really decide, okay, that one is actionable. So what I'm going to do is this. So then we have to build in a pause. If I feel activated, then I'm going to pause. Everything can stop while I figure out what I'm thinking and feeling before I make a decision.

Maybe that decision will be, don't need to do anything. But on the other hand, it might be, no, I need to give myself an example that I have the ability to act opposite to an anxious idea I have. Like, I can't go in there. It's going to be, it's just going to be terrible. You know, I'm way too flawed. You know, whatever we're telling ourselves, we have to kind of nail. What is that piece?

And then where can we challenge it? And what would it take to do something opposite? I'm going to go in there even if I'm flawed.

Whitney H (47:05)
Mm.

Jeri Peterson (47:06)
and I'm going to do my best

because I want to.

Whitney H (47:10)
Yeah. So you're hitting on core beliefs. How do core beliefs maybe play into anxiety and what is a core belief?

Jeri Peterson (47:13)
Thank

Yeah, that's a good place to be is, what do I believe about myself and others in similar situations? What is my core belief? To me, it's like the roots of the tree might become entangled around a rock. And that rock is really anchoring that set of roots. And that's kind of what a core belief looks like to me is what is

What is that core belief? Sometimes it's, I'm not enough. And it shows up like feeling inadequate to the moment or shying away or feeling anxious in the moment. Can I really show up here? I doubt myself that much. I still feel like I'm not enough. And then if we can find that thought and, and usually we know when the client's ready to tolerate finding a core belief, they will know when they're on it.

and then you can help them reframe it. And what's the truth about you? Well, actually I am enough. Were you always enough? Yeah. Well, are you enough now? Well, yeah, I'm more than enough. So they reframe that I'm not enough to I always was enough. Yes, I'm enough and I'm more than enough. And then with that new, it really can set deeply inside of us where it can become the new core belief and we can.

Whitney H (48:33)
Mm.

Jeri Peterson (48:42)
develop our ways of thinking and feeling and choosing according to that new core belief.

Whitney H (48:49)
Yeah, I kind of see it like things and we mentioned anxiety earlier being what shows up on the surface. Again, it's the tenseness in our shoulders. It's our inability maybe to get words out. It's the racing thoughts, the ruminating thoughts that just go in circles and that we can't stop when we're laying in bed at night. So that's what presents on the surface.

And then maybe we go one step lower and that's the memories, the relationships, the experiences that we have that are contributing to that. And then maybe we go one step lower and maybe that's where the core beliefs lie. Things like you mentioned, I'm not enough or I'm not capable or I'm stupid, I'm bad. Everyone has these

core beliefs that are like you mentioned the roots of, or I think you said it's the rock that the roots are tangled around, which I like. That it's something kind of external that we don't have to keep there. But deep down when those are parts of those experiences, again, the bullies on the playground and I'm thinking,

I don't have what it takes to stand up to this person. Or if they say something mean, I'm not going to able to tolerate it. Or whatever they say is actually true. I am stupid and I am ugly and I am an idiot.

that those core beliefs again are kind of like fueling the anxiety or they're always underneath there. In some way they're related and part of maybe working through anxiety is getting down to those core beliefs and shifting those again to something that's true, something that's.

Jeri Peterson (50:31)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Whitney H (50:37)
often say more true when people aren't ready to say this is true about me, that I am capable or I have what it takes to figure this out, or I am lovable despite my flaws. Sometimes people will say that's more true maybe than I'm unlovable.

Jeri Peterson (50:42)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yeah, and it seems when when people take the time and energy it takes to look at the reasons, what are the cognitive distortions around anxiety that they're feeling about the future? We'll never make it or I'll never make it or I'm inadequate here. I'm too too inexperienced and it's very future oriented, you know, trying to read the future in the tea leaves or

It's health, what is a healthier response to what we actually know and can affect. And like you said before, we're not trying to push anxiety down. We're trying to understand what feelings are there and what thoughts might be attached. Are they cognitive distortions? What are we saying to ourselves? Why don't we challenge that?

Is that actually true about you? Well, no. How do you know? Well, because it hasn't happened yet. OK, so there's some unknown. Where else have you not known something and it turned out OK when you got there? Well, I went to dinner the other night and didn't know if the food was going to be good and it turned out to be actually really good. I'm going to recommend that place.

And so looking for the exceptions and applying that to forward thinking. Instead, well, there was a time it worked out. Okay, well, let's do something small. Let's challenge ourselves to something small. When we're faced with an unknown or a cognitive distortion, we can ask the question of that thought. Well, how do you know that, What proof do you have? None? Well, then I guess we'll have to wait till we get there. And let's see.

Whitney H (52:42)
Yeah.

⁓

Another scenario that comes to mind, sometimes think of anxiety as minimizing risk. And maybe someone that's terrified to leave their job because, you know, the job is contributing to a ton of anxious symptoms. But there's no guarantee that, you know, they quit, they get a new job, that that one's going to be even, that's going to be better and it might even be worse. How would you help someone

⁓

through a scenario like that.

Jeri Peterson (53:22)
Part of what we do even goes over into career development. So let's say that someone is losing their job or ready to quit their job or gonna get fired. So there's that anxiety around, boy, here we go. If I didn't measure up here, how could I possibly go get a job that's the same, equal or better? Or do I have to go backwards? There's a lot of anxiety that can be around that.

But if a client brings that into here, then just the act of refreshing your resume, getting ⁓ professional input on it, guidance on it. What are resumes looking like these days? Is it one sheet with your photo on it or does it start with a buzz phrase about you? You're the enterprise. So getting current, that can be competence building and it can also reduce anxiety. And then remembering all of the times, all of the exceptions where

you excelled and you were rewarded and you were good at it and bringing the real data forward in your resume. It's kind of like part of the work we do. We do assessments for what are our strengths. And when we run into a difficulty, we need to rely on our strengths. Let's overlay our strengths onto those perceived weaknesses and see how we can exert.

ourselves into that situation for a probable outcome that's good.

Whitney H (54:48)
Anything you feel like we didn't really touch on?

that you'd want to, I was gonna ask you about the river analogy, but you kind of described it, but it could be maybe a good way to close too is by doing kind of a little exercise or something. I don't know if you can lead it without someone like responding.

Jeri Peterson (55:17)
I don't know. Let's see.

Regarding anxiety. Yeah, the reverie analogy as a a medic cog tool. Okay.

Whitney H (55:24)
or even just a stray, but...

⁓

All right. So Jerry, I love your river analogy and you got into it a little bit earlier, but could you describe it to me as it relates to anxiety?

Jeri Peterson (55:45)
Yes, so if anxiety is our mind trying to predict the future, and it's a protective mechanism, that means it seems to me we're in danger right now, but that's not always true. We can use the river analogy to practice metacognition like this. Let's both go to the river. We're sitting on a smooth stone on the side of the river. You and I, we're side by side.

We're the grounded self on the bank and in the river are thoughts and feelings and past behaviors and potential future behaviors. So we're just observing and we're the grounded self on the bank. So in the river we might see I'm really fearful that when I get to this event, something may happen that I will feel foolish.

or I will feel not prepared. So, okay, we're grounded on the bank and we're observing a feeling. What is that deepest part of that? Is it a deep pool? Is it the rapids? How is it behaving? Well, it looks like a waterfall. It's a little bit frightening and I'm not sure how it's going to land. There might be rocks close to the surface. It might be dangerous. Okay.

Let's just observe that. And what kind of thinking is there with that? Well, I've been hurt before. Yes, you have. And what did that look like? Well, it didn't go well for me. And I felt very embarrassed and I don't want to put myself in that situation again. That's understandable. And we're the grounded self on the bank. How is this different from that? Well, I'm actually not doing anything there except having dinner. Okay.

how could this be different and what parts would feel safe? And then you can go from there. So it's exercising that part of your mind that's drawing new neural pathways that are observing what you're thinking and feeling from a grounded space. And the more we practice it as role playing in therapy, clients can take that with them and practice it on the fly themselves. And they can become more empowered to understand

What mechanism is going that they have in the past avoided showing up to something or they have gone and just not connected with anyone and it might encourage them to overcome some kind of social anxiety. If they can just measure it in a small way that they've got a success, I'm going to go, I'm going to talk to one person and if I need to, I'll leave early so they can put their own parameters on it.

at the river and they can think forward into what if then and plan for a small victory and then when they make it you can return to that victory and they can say I'm proud of myself for this and I overcame that sense of anxiety that was debilitating just a little and you can celebrate that together and then next time

And then it becomes small things often. And then it becomes, I've got this. right. All right. Let's do this. And that's a good payoff.

Whitney H (59:07)
Yeah.

Yeah. I love how Brene Brown says that anxiety is a sign. How does she say it exactly? wonder.

Okay, I love how Brene Brown says that rather than looking at anxiety again as something to fear and as a signal of something to avoid, that it could actually signal that this is a place where I can grow. This is if I step into this, there's a huge opportunity to grow in some way. And rather seeing it seeing anxiety as an opportunity.

rather than, again, ⁓ something to fear. I'll say a long time ago, I had a client and they were terrifying. They didn't like anything I did, anything I said, but they kept coming back. And I would notice my body before they were about to show up. Just, again, that tightening of the chest that I keep referencing.

ruminating thoughts, already imagining how it's going to go. And when I started to see those sessions as this is something that still scares me, you being with someone that is rejecting is very scary for me. But it's an opportunity to grow that I can actually be safe despite, you know, whatever, whatever this person is sending my way.

that I can.

And then in that, can also probably, you know, do my...

When I started to see it as an opportunity to grow, I stopped fearing it and almost welcomed it. You know, part of me welcomed it, a part of me still a little fearful. We always can have mixed feelings about things. But it allowed me to enter into it rather than avoid it and it really became okay and it actually, you know, was a years-long client-therapist relationship that I think a lot of good came from.

But we never would have gotten there if I had just seen this thing that felt emotionally threatening, but really wasn't. I was able to show up grounded and safe in who I am as a person, as a therapist, that I'm still capable or knowledgeable or...

or just able to even be present even when they were giving me opposite messages. That's ridiculous.

Jeri Peterson (1:01:42)
That's that

vulnerability you're talking about. I don't know how many people understand that about therapy is that it's very vulnerable for the therapist also. And ⁓ sometimes we do show up scared and we do it anyway. That's courage. And and we have hard conversations right along with them.

Whitney H (1:01:57)
Mm.

Jeri Peterson (1:02:01)
and we face grief and loss right with them. We're giving them space and we're giving them space and we are the interface where they're interacting and reflecting. So it's very vulnerable for us too and that courage you demonstrated in face of anxiety and fear. I call that good scary because we learn by doing it that you just do it anyway. You just dive in and

that is a growth space. I love that you connected that to anxiety and overcoming what used to be a stop mechanism. You know, our vagus nerve puts the brakes on and we stop. And so that can become immobilizing to some of us, just the presence of anxiety and to demonstrate that you can be frightened by something and ⁓

take a step forward, even if it's a small step. And that courage empowers you to do it again and to really broaden out yourself in those areas to where you're doing hard things all of the time. And it's a way of being. And yes, you need to rest. I think that for therapists, it has to come back to, then we need to withdraw and rest and recuperate.

Whitney H (1:03:23)
Yeah, and you're pointing back to that idea that courage isn't the absence of anxiety, but it's maybe noticing that that's present and facing it anyway or stepping into it anyway.

So anxiety gets quieter when your nervous system learns that I can handle this. And relationships are powerful. I know we've focused on that a lot today. But in the end, the goal isn't to need someone else to feel okay. It's to learn through connection, through visiting mom on the bench, through that hug from my

spouse or from my friend that I can stand on my own and that I'm safe to go out into the world.

We can just end there if you're good.

Jeri Peterson (1:04:16)
You wrap that up with a beautiful bow. I love that.

Whitney H (1:04:19)
All right, thanks.

Okay, cool. I'll end here. I guess let the app save it before you close and then thanks. It's fun.

Jeri Peterson (1:04:28)
Okay.

This was very

fun, enjoyable, informative. Thank you.

Whitney H (1:04:34)
Yeah, thank you. Bye, Jerry.

Jeri Peterson (1:04:36)
Bye.